Rob: Coming up on Rob at Home: my conversation with Jeffrey Marsh, a social media star with hundreds of millions of views of videos, with a common thread of courage and trust.

Jeffrey: I am not a man, and I am not a woman.

And a lot of people find that statement to be shocking, different, weird, gross.

It runs the gambit, whatever.

But many people find that statement to be an invitation as well.

Rob: Jeffrey is the first openly nonbinary public figure to be interviewed on national television.

I think you're the best, um, antidote to bullying because you take the bullying, and you make it a blessing.

Jeffrey: I strive constantly to make everyone I come in contact with feel special.

I'm so happy that you contacted me to help me tell the truth to people.

Rob: What matters most to Jeffrey Marsh coming up next, right here on Rob at Home.

Annc: And now Rob on the Road, exploring Northern California.

Rob: I am absolutely thrilled and so honored to have our guest today on Rob at Home.

Jeffrey Marsh, it is so good to see you.

Jeffrey: Hello there.

May I say what a lovely home you have?

What I can see inside the window, uh, you know, this new way that we're relating to each other.

What I can see looks very lovely.

Rob: And yours too.

Yours too.

Jeffrey: Yes, thank you.

I love books.

Rob: Speaking of you have your own.

Why don't you tell me about that first?

Jeffrey: Oh goodness.

What a segue.

You're a pro!

Yeah, sometimes I have to weave in, you know, talk of my own book, but you went there.

I thank you.

It's called "“How to Be You"” and it's actually on this shelf behind me.

"“How to be you.

"” It is the guidebook that I wrote for my 11-year-old self of all the stuff that we didn't get.

Um, it's from Penguin and they decided to release it as a title for everybody.

So, it's not for 11-year old'’s really specifically, it's for all people to get that information that we weren't taught -- that we are worthy, that we can learn to love ourselves, that we can learn to walk this earth without shame.

Rob: Before I go to my next question, I have to ask you, how does it feel to hold that book in your hand and to know that inside of it are all of the things that you wish would have been shared with you?

Jeffrey: Um, nobody ever asks me that Rob.

Uh... it's emotional it's, um, sort of, you know, it's melancholy, shall we say?

You know, I think the... the stock kind of author answer is like, "“I'm so proud of my book.

I'm so happy it's out in the world.

"” And that is definitely true, but there's also the sadness of lost time.

And those of us that had to become the child nobody worried about.

To grow up, um, and act like adults before it was time for us to do that.

And being able to reclaim that childhood and revisit that childhood is a source of joy and fun, and beauty.

And it's also a source of grieving for the time that we didn't get to be free and dance around and have fun.

So, it's both.

But... it -- no matter how... no matter how you look at it, it's close to my heart.

How's that?

Rob: Absolutely, close to your heart.

And I...

I love that you give a real answer.

And anyone who follows you on social media, which is a lot of people.

I mean, you have had in the billions of views.

That'’s with a B -- Billions.

Um, you have millions of followers when you add up your platforms.

Um, and you have a way...

I...

I've been thinking about this of turning compliments and criticism with the same grace into a learning experience that leaves people healed.

And it transcends the topic.

Jeffrey: Hmm.

Rob: How do you do that?

Jeffrey: Would you give me one word to describe me?

Rob: You?

Jeffrey: Mhm.

Just one.

Rob: Light.

Jeffrey: Great.

Rob: L I G H T. Jeffrey: You described yourself, Rob.

Say more.

Light... what-— Rob: Light.

L I G H T. Jeffrey: Yeah.

You described yourself.

So, a lot of people come on my page, and you might guess, or you might have read say the most awful things.

And that's a reflection of them and where they are coming from.

The word light is a reflection of you and where you're coming from.

So, what I attempt to do with anything, you know, and I used to resent it so much, and I don't know if you can relate to this.

But being who I am is so -- and expressing who I am with freedom is so rare, not just as a human being, but as an LGBTQ person, it is so rare to find that, that people tend to be either magnetized or repelled.

And I become an emblem and not a person.

And I used to really resent that, but now I thoroughly enjoy it because what I actually am is a reflection.

I help people see the truth of who they are.

And that truth to me is also connection.

So hopefully I help people connect, not just with people like me, but with themselves.

Does that make sense?

Rob: Oh, completely.

Because I watch the people that follow you and the comments.

You have so many followers from across multiple platforms and I...

I've seen the people that are there, and you cannot put any - of course, you can't do this with life at all, right?

But you can't put your followers in a specific genre because you have gone into, um, if you will unchartered waters with a very smooth ship.

Jeffrey: I try my best.

I love that metaphor.

Um, yeah, we're all trying to sail our ship, aren't we?

The best we can.

I -- if you look in the demographics, so all of the apps will tell you, uh, maybe people watching are social media stars and this isn't new information to them, but the apps give you lots of demographic information about your followers.

And in general, I have about one-third of my followers, identify themselves as conservatives and Republicans.

About one-third is Democrats, um, and liberals, uh, the... the app sort of put those in the same category.

And one-third is, you know, unidentified, um, independent, et cetera.

So, for me, there's something about my message...

It is very weird because I have people who follow me and ostensibly benefit from what I'm saying.

And also, in quotes "“hate people like me.

"” And I have no idea how, I mean, I guess it happens cause I'm cute and charming, but you know, it's not something I'm...

I'm specifically setting out to do.

All I'm setting out to do is have integrity and tell the truth.

Rob: That is the tie that binds: integrity and telling the truth.

And-- Jeffrey: I think so.

Rob: It can bring people together from all across the board.

It can.

Jeffrey: I've witnessed it and I've felt it.

And it's one of the things that I am most proud of about my work.

There can be a sort of...

There are a lot of activists online who are exclusive, and I'm not saying that to diminish anybody.

I think that kind of activism is actually very valuable.

And you ta-- you take, um, you can sort of, uh, tell the truth in a way that takes people to task.

And I think that actually can be a nice contribution.

It's not my style at all.

And I like to show people that there's a way to tell the truth that's inclusive, that gets to what brings us together.

That you can keep integrity about, "“You will respect someone like me.

"” You can keep that as a pillar of integrity and, uh... you know, not be mean about it.

You know what I'm saying?

Rob: When you say someone like me... Jeffrey: Hmm...

Rob: What do you mean?

Jeffrey: What is that?

Rob: What do you mean?

Because you know, I...

I didn't even -- and I did not bring this up at the top of the show because we don't bring it up at the top of any show... Jeffrey: Thank you.

Rob: When we're interviewing a guest.

Um, but I will say, because I believe in education and inspiration, that it's important to share who we are as people.

Will you share with us who you are?

Jeffrey: Yeah, evidently, I am light.

But beyond that -- according to you.

But beyond that, I am not a man, and I am not a woman.

And a lot of people find that statement to be shocking, um, different, weird, uh, you know, it runs the gamut, gross, whatever.

Um, but many people find that statement to be an invitation as well.

Rob: How so?

Jeffrey: That'’s the point where someone asks a follow-up.

And that can also be the point where someone can start to use me as a mirror, again, to look at their own gender, who they are as a person.

The times when they felt whatever box they're in and that box could be labeled, man, it could be labeled woman.

Whatever box they happen to be in starts to chafe.

It starts to rub up against some ways that they naturally are.

And that excites me.

You know, when I... when I tell the truth of who I am, I use the word nonbinary, meaning man and woman are... are a binary, meaning two, right?

The two usual choices people are told that... Can I go off on a tangent?

Rob: Go.

Jeffrey: To think that seven and a half billion people fit into one box or the other box... is a bit much.

So, the word nonbinary to me just means you, you're not in one of those boxes.

And I love when people use that as a chance to look at their own box and just make sure that all those walls are what they want for who they are.

Rob: Nonbinary -- And I...

I want to say this for anyone watching who is truly just curious.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Rob: Nonbinary and transgender are totally different things, but they can be hand-in-hand in the same person.

But they're different things, correct?

Jeffrey: Yeah.

If you think about, so just the five-letter word, T R A N S, trans has come to be this beautiful inclusive umbrella word that includes people like me.

So, in some dusty, crusty filing cabinet in a building in Pennsylvania is my birth certificate.

And on that -- I'm in California and Pennsylvania is that way.

So, in Pennsylvania, somewhere in that filing cabinet is my birth certificate.

And on the birth certificate, it says M A L E, male.

And today I'm out as nonbinary.

So that is a transition.

And that makes me trans.

But I'm different than someone like Laverne Cox, or even Caitlyn Jenner who have gone from one of the binary genders on their birth certificate to another binary gender that they've come out as now.

Both of those people have come out as women.

Is all of that making sense?

Rob: Oh, completely, completely.

Jeffrey: Ok.

Rob: And I think this important to go from here to the pronoun conversation, because I think that I recently found myself in this position, Jeffrey, where someone I've known for years, I saw them recently and they had on, um, and I had assumed... and we know what assuming does, right?

I had assumed that-- Jeffrey: [laughs] We can't say it on this program, but yes.

Rob: I had assumed that they were a male.

And then I saw them not long ago, um, and this person was wearing clothes that would identify as female.

And I immediately thought, "“Oh my goodness, I have...

I have referred to my friend as buddy.

"” Um, those things that may sound male, and I could only imagine how that feels when it's not who you are inside.

And so, pronouns.

Tell me about-- Jeffrey: Can I just get -—I...

I am so...

I am so sorry to interrupt you.

You... you just made me so enthusiastic cause I want to get meta for a second.

If people want to be kind to people like me, that is a life of violence.

Meaning if people want to go through the process of learning to accept and be the most kind to people like me, you will go through moments of being unkind and learning.

And I know it seems hyperbolic and dramatic to say that someone not using my correct pronouns, which is they, by the way, someone not using my correct pronoun feels violent.

I know that seems like, "“Oh, Jeffrey, don't be so dramatic,"” but it does really sincerely feel that way because it is a clear indication that whoever is speaking does not see me, does not understand me, does not respect me.

And that can be a form of violence.

And there -- if there is one thing kindhearted people want to avoid in life, it's being traumatic, being violent to other people.

But allyship is often about just go in there and then being corrected by the marginalized folks and then getting to a place where you don't do those traumatic things anymore.

Rob: When someone wants to know, um, and to lean into that conversation it's... it'’s... it'’s as if it'’s saying I see you.

Jeffrey: I give workshops and I just did one actually in a corporate environment.

I had to use-- Rob: How'’d it go?

Jeffrey: I had to use Microsoft Teams.

Rob: Ok. Jeffrey: If that tells you anything.

Um... you know, it was such a beautiful example of coming together because I've led them through an exercise about remembering a time when they felt truly accepted.

So, whether that was at church or, you know, a sports team at your school, or just a time when you felt really included for exactly who you are, and that's what pronouns do for people like me.

It just is an absolute signal of inclusion, acceptance, love, kindness.

I don't have to worry.

I can let my guard down.

I can be who I am.

That's what pronouns do.

And by the way, that's what labels do.

That's what the word nonbinary is to me, a gateway into true acceptance.

To me, the word nonbinary refers to those two boxes of man and woman.

And I sure think that eventually, whatever generation comes next and next and next, we'll get away to refer -- get away from referring to us as what we're not, you know-- Rob: That'’s right.

Jeffrey: Not those boxes.

And get to more often talking about who we are.

Which is where words like gender fluid come in, gender expansive, gender delightful, gender cute.

Rob: I love that.

And that... that's one of the things that stuck with me is because, you know, when I see you, I see you as everything.

So, starting the sentence with non, to me, um, I just wanted to say that to you is that-- You know, there are cultures, many cultures, um, who have historically put people like you on a pedestal and celebrated someone who is neither but both and all.

Jeffrey: I'm glad you said there are several cultures, um, that even saw us as religious leaders.

Closer to God, um, not that it needs to be a hierarchy, but you know, we were seen as very, very spiritual beings.

And you helped me remember that no matter what culture we are in, we are still transcending.

We are still transcendent.

The truth doesn't change even if the culture is against us.

And so, I...

I wanted to thank you for that reminder because who we are is much more important than anything, you know, a bully or a misunderstanding Hollywood producer.

Rob: And I know you receive messages daily that your work saves somebody's life.

That's a big, big deal.

Jeffrey: Not just daily.

I mean, pretty constantly.

And it's one of the most important things.

Um...

I guess, in an ironic way, it's a reason for me to get up in the morning.

It's a reason for me to keep going.

Uh, it's a reason for me to stay committed.

Rob: There are very few people in this world that use their platforms for the greater good.

Um, Oprah.

Um... Jeffrey: I've heard of her.

Rob: Like I said, very few.

But you do that.

Everything you do, transcend self and goes to a simple acknowledgement that says, "“I see you and love you and accept you.

"” And I want to read you something... Jeffrey: Hey, wait.

No.

Okay.

Yes.

I want you to read...

Rob: No, you go ahead.

Jeffrey: But hold on.

Rob: Mhm?

Jeffrey: Remember when you said I was light?

Rob: Mhm.

Jeffrey: Yeah, it's projection.

You... you just did a whole speech about who you are as well.

And we are both walking metaphors for anybody.

We are breathing metaphors for anybody who-- Rob: Explain that.

Jeffrey: Was told there was something wrong with them.

Rob: Explain that who doesn'’t-- for someone who may have a hard time understanding that I've heard you say, "“I am a metaphor.

"” Explain that.

Jeffrey: Uh, when I studied at the monastery, the Buddhist monastery, I've been studying them for oh gosh, over 20 years.

Um, you know, I was driven to the Buddhist monastery by desperation.

Hating myself.

I would not have survived, um, unless I did something drastic.

So, I moved to a monastery.

Rob: Good.

Jeffrey: Um, at the monastery - Good, yeah.

At the monastery, my teacher there would say, she would say, uh, "“It's the toos that will get you.

"” T O O.

And I have grown into understanding what she means.

So, I'm a metaphor for transcending "“you'’re too,"” or rather using "“you'’re too"” as your greatest asset.

So, I was told, "“You're too LGBTQ.

You are too femme.

You're too, too, too, too.

"” And I have made that into my life's passion, right?

Being this femme, this beautiful, this fabulous, this gorgeous, this sparkly, right?

And it's what I was told you're too much of.

So, some people are told you're too loud.

Um, you're too smart.

You're too... who knows?

Right.

Whatever that thing is, that is your greatest, greatest asset.

And that's what you're here to offer the world as long as you stop running from "“you'’re too"” and turn around and run toward "“you'’re too.

"” Rob: That's one of the most powerful things I have ever heard in my life.

Jeffrey: You've done it!

You did it in your life.

Rob: But I-- but hearing you say that -- I always have said, and I borrowed this... this was a quote that Robin Roberts said her mother would say to her, um, "“Make your mess your message.

"” And that is something I really try to do on a daily basis.

And, not but, and I love the "“run to you'’re too.

"” Is there something you've always wanted someone to ask you that they haven't or something that you want to share?

Jeffrey: I think what's most important to share is you don't have to be strong.

Rob: How do you give yourself the same grace that you give other people?

Jeffrey: It's a practice and you just said it, right?

Give yourself the grace that you will give other people.

Um, the kids always ask me, "“How can I be confident like you?

"” And I like to point out that it's not confidence, that there are times when I do not feel confident.

And what they are witnessing or what I strive for, what I'm pointed toward is total radical self-acceptance.

So, if I hold it up and I don't feel it that day, that is absolutely okay.

And I know that I still have my back.

I know that when the camera goes off, when the Zoom goes off, when the, you know, when I am sitting here alone, I will have kindness in my life, no matter what happened.

Rob: Radical acceptance even when you don't feel courage or happy.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Or even when I say something that doesn't, you know, come out the way that it was intended or when somebody hates my guts or whatever.

Whatever happens, that's the only thing I'm committed to, is radical acceptance.

And there's a second book on the way, and I'll continue to always make videos and go live on Instagram and spend time with my beautiful family on the internet.

That's my... my mission in life.

Rob: I hope you know how much, um, you matter to me.

Jeffrey: [gasp] Aw!

Rob: How much you matter to other people.

And how much, uh, one thing in your life shared can completely transform a day for someone else.

And I'm grateful for you.

You are one of those rare people that when you meet them, you leave a better person.

And so, thank you for... for making me a better person.

Jeffrey: You are absolutely correct.

I am like that.

[laughs] Rob: You are, and you agree.

Jeffrey: That's how you accept a compliment!

Rob: Thank you so much, Jeffrey Marsh... And uh... Jeffrey: Thank you so much.

Thank you for your light today.

Rob: You are so welcome.

You are so welcome.

And Jeffrey Marsh is all over every social media platform you can imagine, um, that shares good news and good light and joy.

You're everywhere.

So, thank you, Jeffrey.

Jeffrey: Thank you.

Bye.

♪♪