Rob: Coming up on Rob at Home.

His church was the scene of a crime.

An LGBTQ+ Pride flag flying at the church was taken down and burned.

We will speak to Dean Matthew Woodward at Trinity Cathedral coming up next.

Annc: And now Rob on the Road, exploring Northern California.

Rob: Hi there.

I'm Rob Stewart and welcome to this week'’s edition of Rob at Home.

It is so good to be with you today.

And on this week's program, I am thrilled to bring in Dean Matthew Woodward.

Dean Matthew is at the Trinity Cathedral, which is the seat of the Diocese of Northern California for the Episcopal Church and has a lot to talk about today.

I'm thrilled that you're here Dean Woodward.

Matthew: Thank you.

It's really nice to be with you, Rob.

Thanks for inviting me.

Rob: So, I...

I want to start out with something that made news across our region, and that is something that happened at the cathedral and a Pride flag that was flying at the cathedral.

And... and you just take it from there.

Tell us what happened.

Matthew: Yeah.

I-- as I said, I'm a new Dean at the cathedral.

I've been here since last September.

Um, and Trinity Cathedral has been an affirming community to the LGBTQ community for decades.

Um, so it's long been our tradition to fly Pride flag, um, to fly... to fly a rainbow flag during the month of June.

And we had put one up, uh, just at the end of May, as we were going into June in front of the cathedral.

And on the first Saturday of June, the 5th of June, this last year, or this year, I was getting out to take my, um, Australian shepherd to, uh, Ru Paws Drag Race.

It was a pride event, um-- Rob: Oh, I get it.

Ru Paws.

P A W S. Matthew: Yes.

Rob: For dogs.

Okay.

Matthew: And it'’s because there was-— there'’s not going to be a Pride parade this year, so there are lots of other little events.

I'm new so I was trying to connect with the LGBT center here in, uh, Sacramento, and I thought this would be a good opportunity to do so.

So-- Rob: And let me just say really quickly, if someone doesn't know what RuPaul's Drag Race is.

RuPaul is an internationally known drag queen who is, uh, a fabulous entertainer.

And so RuPaul is P A U L, and this is P A W, Ru Paw.

Okay, take-- keep going.

Sorry.

Matthew: That'’s okay.

Some context is really helpful for this.

Rob: When you found out what happened, and you sat there at your desk... Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: What were you thinking?

What were you feeling?

Matthew: Um, I was...

I was sad.

Um, the flag is a sign of love for us.

It's a sign that we... we believe that God loves everybody.

God loves, um, the LGBTQ community and that they bring blessings to our community.

Um, and so it's a sign of love.

And it made me feel sad that somebody would take down that sign of love and... and burn it.

Um... so... so I was...

I was a little thrown.

I was...

I was...

I was saddened.

I called my... my volunteer and told her that I had found the fragments.

I called my director of operations and they said, "“Well, what do we want to do?

Should we... should we report this to the police?

What should we do?

"” And I said, "“I don't really know what I want to do.

I'm just going to take my dog to the event.

"” Um, but the thing that happened then, which was kind of unusual.

It was, I was like, feeling offended that my flag had been burned, that the flag of the cathedral had been burned.

So, I have an old, um, Pride cape that I wore, like a rainbow cape.

And I thought, "“Well, I'm gonna put extra rainbows on today.

"” And I put the cape on, um, I put my collar on because I wanted it known, be clear that I was there present as a member of the clergy.

And I took the dog in the car and went to the event and walked along with the other dogs.

Um, River... River can be noisy as you have, uh, as you've heard, but she can also be photogenic.

Um, so she was playing in, um, they had a paddling pool outside the event, um, at Plant Daddy here in, uh, Sacramento.

And a photographer from the Sacramento Bee took a photograph and then came up to me and said, "“Can I have your dog's name to put in the paper?

"” Um, so I gave him River Song'’s name.

And then he said, you know, "“What are you doing here?

What do you-- what... what does pride mean to you?

"” And, um, I said, "“Well, I'm just a bit thrown because this thing just happened.

The flag at my cathedral got burned.

And, uh, and it... it was important to me to be with this loving community, this affirming community in... in that moment.

So, I wanted to come to this event.

"” And he said, "“Oh gosh.

Can I... can I interview you about that?

"” And then that's what led to I think is becoming more of a publicly known event.

Um-- Rob: Mhm.

Yeah, I'’ve seen it all.

I'’ve seen about it, and I've heard about it-— Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: Across the region and you know, part of that is...

Yes, what happened, um, and that act of... act of violence toward your church.

Um, and I also think it has to do with the fact that people are hearing church and Pride flag.

And for some people that may sound, um, new.

Matthew: Yeah.

Yeah.

I-— Rob: And that's putting it politely.

Matthew: I, uh, I appreciate that.

Um, I think it does sound new for people.

Um, the-—I...

I want to say that the Episcopal Church has been working on its response to the LGBTQ community for a long time, has long been an affirming denomination.

And, um, one of the things I discovered in this whole process is just how long the Cathedral at Trinity has been affirming of the LGBTQ community.

Um, it's been decades that we've been working on this.

And, um, when I was hired, one of the things that was really interesting for me was I was sitting in the interview with the Vestry, which is our church board.

And they were checking in and telling me about their lives.

And I was like counting them and I was realizing more than 50% of the board were members of the LGBTQ community.

Um, and... and I commented on that and said, "“This is... this is not usual even from an Episcopal Church.

"” Um, and they said, "“Well, yeah, we-- we've been... we've been really working on this, um, idea of inclusion and the LGBTQ community is... is deeply integrated in the leadership of the church.

"” Um, so-- Rob: I need to ask you a very, very head- on question because this is, I think this is... this is what's coming to me.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: To ask you that, is... is Trinity Cathedral a place, and then therefore your denomination.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: A place that says you are welcome.

Matthew: Mhm.

Rob: Or you are welcome.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: You are celebrated.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: You are supported.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: You are no different than our straight parishioners.

And pardon me for asking that.

But I do think that some people wonder if the church will tolerate or will embrace authentically as you are not as something that must change.

Matthew: Yeah.

Yeah.

I-- you used three words that are really important to note: welcome, um, and tolerate, um, and-— well actually I'm not sure you used this word, but the other one I think of is affirm.

Rob: Mhm.

Matthew: Um, so many churches say they're welcoming to the LGBTQ community, but then what they're saying is, um, "“We welcome you to come in the door, but then when you get here, we're going to work on you changing.

"” Um, and... and that's not the same thing as affirmation.

Um, you said tolerate.

Uh, we're sitting here, and I understand I'm new to Sacramento.

It's about to be the hottest day that we've had in the last year.

We're about to get 110 and I'm going to tolerate that weather, but I'm not necessarily going to like it.

Um, and so tolerating people is not the same thing as, as you say, welcoming and celebrating, um, them.

The... the Episcopal Church, um, has wrestled with this response to homosexuality over the last few years and has come to the place where we now ordain gay people.

We have gay members of the clergy, both at the level of priests like me and bishops.

Um, we also have written a rite of same-sex marriage.

Um, and at first, it was interesting in our church.

At first, we had a rite for same-sex marriage and then the regular rite for heterosexual couples.

And that happened at one of our conventions, and at the following convention, a number of straight people said, "“We really liked the words of the... the... the new rite.

Can we use that?

"” And a number of the gay couples were saying, "“Well, we really like the traditional marriage.

Can we use that?

"” So, in the end, our church said, "“Actually, um, you... you can use either rite, um, for heterosexual or homosexual couples to be married and affirm their relationships.

"” Um, so we... we we've done that work.

Um, and... Oh, Rob, I mean, I'm sure you understand that there's always still work to be done.

Rob: Always.

Yeah, I mean, that'’s life.

Matthew: Yeah.

Yeah.

But I feel, um, as a gay man accepted and affirmed by this church, um, I was privileged to be the Rector of Transfiguration in San Mateo before I became the Dean here.

And it was a, um, suburban parish.

It was a founding ministry parish.

Um, often people think if you want to a Rector for a founding ministry parish, you need a, uh, a married man with 2.4 children, um, because that's what qualifies them.

But what that parish recognized was I had skills and gifts, um, in early childhood education.

And so, they... they welcomed and accepted me as a family minister.

Um, which is a great gift and something that I felt very privileged for, um, receiving that.

Rob: I have to ask you, what did your congregation say when they heard the news about the flag?

Matthew: There was some sadness and shock, um, members of the gay community... uh... uh, I don't know, I want to say this carefully.

Um, they'’re used to being ill -treated, um, and we kind of go quiet.

Um, some of the people that were more vocally shocked were some of the straight allies in the congregation, um, who were appalled.

And... and what I realized as this whole event was unfolding, um, was that we have well established values that have been dealt with, that have been developed over decades.

Um, and somebody destroying the flag, isn't going to end those values.

I think I said at one point that, um, you can't defeat love that easily.

Um, we'’ll go and buy a new flag.

And that was borne out by the response to many of the straight members of the community who wanted to come to me and say, "“These are the values of our organization.

Um, can we buy a new flag?

Um, we'll... we'll donate for it.

We'll... we'll go get one.

"” Um, and that was really... that was really moving.

I had a number of letters and emails from people affirming that this was the, um, long-standing position of the parish and that they, um, were shocked and really wanted to make sure that we flew a Pride flag.

Um, the difficulty that we had was realizing buying a Pride flag, buying, uh, a rainbow flag in the middle of Pride month is not the easiest thing to do.

Um, many vendors have sold out.

Um, we were lent a flag, um, by, um, Mary Morrison and Jo Weber, who are clergy in my parish.

They're married to each other.

It's a- they're... they're a same-sex couple, um, married to each other and now in retirement.

They come and worship and serve at the cathedral.

They had a flag laying around at home and they lent it to us.

So that's temporarily flying and we're trying to procure our own now.

Um, but, uh, this month is a difficult month to buy one.

So-— Rob: Did they catch the person that did it?

Matthew: Um, there's a police investigation ongoing.

Um, we... we did decide to ask the police to investigate and explore.

Um, I don't know what the status of that is.

And, um, I...

I will find out, I guess, in due time.

But I-- Rob: What do you want to say to the person that did this?

Matthew: Oh, gosh.

That's a really good question, Rob.

Um, I don't know who it is.

I don't know what their motivations are.

I don't even think I can imagine that.

Um, there's a process unfolding that I would like to unfold with the police.

Um, I talked to the parish in my letter last week saying that we did ask the police to investigate because we want others to be safe.

Um, we also would like to know the motivation of the person, um, and find out if they need any help.

But there's a legal process that has to unfold as a part of that whole dynamic.

What would I want to say in the fullness of time?

I want to say, I believe that God is love, but this wasn't a loving act.

Um, and I cannot speculate on how that conversation would unfold if it were able to happen.

Um, I think that-— Rob: Would they be welcome one day if the-- and I understand the investigation is a... is a legal matter.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: But in the end, would they be welcome in your church?

Matthew: I think everybody will be welcome in our church.

Um, everybody would be.

And-- but sometimes that does take some work.

Um, it's really interesting.

We were talking earlier about whether the church is affirming or just welcoming for LGBTQ people.

Many of the queer community have entered into churches and then been asked to change the moment they come in the door.

Um, and that's not something that we do or want to do.

Um, we want to affirm them and love them as they are, but we're all on spiritual journeys.

And so, for all of us, I want to offer the spiritual resources of our tradition so that people can grow.

Um, if somebody were to come to the church and still committed to the idea of... of burning a symbol, um, that is dear to the hearts of many people in that community.

That... that would be difficult.

I don't think that they could, um, be present in the community.

But if they were to go through a change of heart, um, if they were to acknowledge, um, get whatever help they need and grow, um, then yes, absolutely.

We... we... we we'’re reconciling community.

Um, that's important to us and so we would find a way to do that.

But it would be, I think, after a process.

Rob: Of course, yeah.

Let me ask you...

So many of the things you've said, um, and... and then knowing your job... Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: And then you.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: Have you yourself had-- and may we... may we talk about your personal story?

Matthew: Yes, of course.

Yeah.

Rob: Have you yourself had to walk through steps of reconciling with yourself?

Matthew: Yeah, absolutely.

Yes.

Um...

Rob: Will you tell me about... will you tell me about that?

Matthew: I will, I will.

I...

I'm sitting here like processing the question and I'm thinking, um, I...

I feel a moment of a tug when... when we say let's talk about you and your story.

I grew up in conservative Christian household that did not affirm gay people.

Um, and I began to realize I was gay in my teenage years.

I went to Theological College in England at first thinking I'd go back into the Pentecostal Church I was raised in and be a minister.

But part way through that college experience I...

I really understood that I was gay.

Rob: And I want to add-— I want to jump in really quick right here, because I think this is important to mention.

This is applicable to any family, regardless of religion, politics or just beliefs in what people feel is right or wrong.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: This process you're about to talk about is... is a process that... that any family can go through-— Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: When someone doesn't see the other person as who they are.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: Okay.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: So, continue, you said you were talking about when you first realized you were gay.

Matthew: I didn't come out to my parents till I was 27.

Um, it took some time.

And at first it was like, an apology coming out, kind of like, "“I'm so sorry you have a gay son, but I happen to be gay.

"” Um, and we had a tough time for a few years navigating that.

Um, I will say the thing that I love about my parents is they keep coming back.

Um, even when things are difficult.

We... we had some arguments, um, over that time.

After five or six years, I changed my perspective and I thought to myself, you know, I'm not gonna apologize for being gay anymore.

I...

I didn't ask to be, I didn't make this the case.

I actually am beginning to see it as a great blessing, a gift from God.

I'm actually beginning to see my, um, perspective as a person who stands on the edge of various communities being a gift.

Um, being able to see difference in a new light.

Um, I actually think that that requirement to hold tension, um, means that we develop the ability, um, I think to understand other people's tension, um, other people's suffering and struggles.

Um, it creates empathy.

And so, I started to like, to realize that being gay wasn't, um, a thing I just have to put up with, but was the thing that I could celebrate and... and appreciate.

Rob: I hear a thread through this, Matthew, and that is that the tie that binds in this story for me, um, that worked, it sounds like with your parents and with you, is that love is love.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: And that can be applied to a spiritual or religious situation or not.

Love is love.

Matthew: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob: And if you focus on the positive aspect of what you're trying to accomplish, sometimes it wins.

Matthew: Yeah.

Yeah.

Though, I want to say that love is not a simple feeling.

It's not just, um, affection.

It's not just, um, it... it's... it'’s not just like this kind of rosy kind of picture.

I believe in...

I believe in love that we commit to.

Love that we work on.

Love that takes time.

Love that requires us to reach across boundaries and seek reconciliation when necessary.

And that that takes work, determination.

And you have to keep coming back to it.

Rob: So, is that part of what you feel love is, is because love can be very hard.

Matthew: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, love can be hard.

Love can be difficult.

At its best it can reach across chasms of loneliness and draw people together and help people to seek reconciliation.

Rob: How do you reconcile that?

Anytime we've done a show or a program where we involve, um, religion and anything that someone does not view as what they think religion is.

We hear all of the, "“But what about this?

But what about this?

"” in response.

But what I hear you saying is, is that that comes from the person's approach of whatever the subject is they're looking at.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: If you look for fear in something, you're gonna find it.

If you look for love, you're gonna find.

Matthew: Yes.

The... the lens that we use, or the glasses we put on to read a biblical text are going to shape our experience of it.

Rob: And I...

I think I also need to say here, because I...

I heard you, I...

I hear you when you say-- I hear you, period.

But I...

I hear you also, when you say, um, you mentioned a hom-- a homophobic community.

And that... that can be any community with any phobia or any prejudice.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: Um, spiritual or not.

Um, no matter what, you know, no matter what you are watching this.

Whether you are spiritual or not.

Whether you are... whatever part of community you are in.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: I believe what I'm hearing you say, Matthew, is that when we focus on what separates us, we are separate.

Matthew: Yes.

Rob: And when we focus on the fact that we are all human beings... Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: We help each other, or we can help each other, with being human.

Matthew: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

And... absolutely, um, and we are living in a more polarized culture than perhaps we have lived in for some time.

Um, recent-— Rob: You said more polarized.

Matthew: More polarized.

Recent politics has been, um, separating us from each other even more.

Um, I think the principles of reconciliation and love that I was talking...

I was talking about earlier can be applied in a whole range of areas.

And around the election, um, at the end of last year in, uh, November, we were running a program where we were trying to get people from different political views to get beyond the polarization of politics and see the humanity in each other.

Um, and that's really important to me.

Um, we are... we are a progressive church, but we also have a very wide range of, um, members of the community.

Um, and political conservatives, as well as political liberals are welcome to come and pray together, um, in our cathedral.

And I really want us to see the humanity in each other and do the reconciliation work that's necessary to try and get us away from polarization.

Rob: Now I understand why it is so hurtful to your congregation, what happened.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: The flag.

Matthew: Right.

Rob: Because that flag is a rainbow and if I'm not mistaken, rainbows symbolize love and that the storm is over.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: And I'm just curious how you feel about that statement.

Matthew: It's really interesting that the symbol of the LGBT community became a rainbow.

Um, because I think it's hope, um, that the storm, um, in our lives and our hearts will pass and that we can recognize that we are fully loved and accepted.

You know, I hope that's okay.

Rob: Of course, it is.

This is-- there is no agenda here.

Matthew: Yeah.

Rob: Um, except for to talk about, as we do every week, what is on the person we're talking to heart.

And I am so grateful that you let us into yours, um, because you have shared so many things that I think are applicable to so many people.

And I thank you for opening your heart and your... your home to us.

Matthew: Thank you for your invitation, Rob.

It's been a lovely conversation we should carry on sometime.

Rob: Yes, we will.

We will.

And it's so good to be with Dean Matthew Woodward from Trinity Cathedral in Sacramento, which is the... the Cathedral of the Diocese of Northern California.

All right.

Congratulations on becoming the new Dean and, um, we're thrilled to have you here on Rob at Home.

My best to you.

Matthew: God bless.

Take care, Rob.

Bye.

Rob: Bye.

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