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And now Rob on the Road, exploring Northern California.

Rob: Hi there, I'm Rob Stewart and thanks so much for joining us on Rob at Home.

The conversation is about congressional civility and what happens when disagreements become disrespect.

This on the heels of the historic vote in Washington, ousting the speaker of the House.

We put these questions to Congressman Ami Bera to discuss congressional civility and what happens when things become uncivilized.

We are so happy to have Congressman Ami Bera join us from his Washington office.

Congressman, great to see you.

Ami Bera: Rob, thanks for having me on.

Rob: Thrilled to have you here, as always.

We are talking today about the political divide, the... the civil discourse, if you will, or some say the uncivil situation in Congress.

Talk to me about your feelings on working together.

Ami: You know, we have to work together, right?

When I think about, um, my district, I'm a reflection of the people that live in Sacramento County.

So, I have to accept that a member of Congress like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's been elected and reelected, is a reflection of, um, her constituents in northern Georgia.

And if-- that is how I approach my job, is, um, instead of trying to judge someone or think of them as an opponent, um, I try to understand where they're coming from, what their perspective is, what their constituents are... are saying.

Now, that doesn't mean I'm not going to try to influence or change their opinion, but...

I don't think we should judge everyone as a good person or bad person.

Um, because, again, there's 435 members of Congress, each of us representing, um, a specific district, and I think we're all a reflection of the people that live in that community.

Rob: I'm curious to ask you if the behavior that we're seeing on television is as, um... frankly, bad in person when there are no cameras?

Ami: Um, it's not-- the two committees that I sit on; I'm a senior member of the Foreign Affairs Committee and I'm also a member of the Intelligence Committee.

And what we do on the Intelligence Committee, it's about 30 of us that have access to the... the... the most guarded information that, you know, even the other 400 members of Congress don't have access to.

There are no cameras.

Most of what we do is in a classified setting.

Um, and the level of civility, the type of questions folks are asking when they're no cameras around theyre actually, um, not that different from if you're a Democrat or a Republican.

And I think we've got to get rid of that performative, um, nature, right?

So, there are folks that I would, um, generously define as performative artists.

They're not here to legislate or govern.

They're here to perform.

Whereas I would still say the vast majority of members still want to represent their district, want to do good things back home, and then understand that we're here to represent our country as well, and that that requires not the performance, but serious dialog, discussion, negotiation.

Um, right now I think the performative artists are holding the institution hostage.

So...

Rob: That's a very powerful sentence.

You're seeing it play out right in front of you.

My... my question to you is, what does that do to the American people?

And frankly, what does it do to both sides of... of... of Congress, the Senate and the House?

Ami: Yeah, I think it erodes trust in the institution.

Um, people want to see Congress function and they want to see us get things done.

They want to see us have robust debate, dialog, discussion.

But at the end of the day, they want to see progress.

Um... and... you know, that's how it was 20 years ago, certainly.

And you hear about the days of ‘Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan, um, debating, disagreeing, etc., but then going out and getting a beer afterwards or... Ami: I don't think enough of that happens.

I think we should do more together to get to know one another as someone's husband or wife, son or daughter, father or mother - um, then you'd see a human being.

And...

I think that's what I try to do.

Um... You know, people ask me if-- you know, I'm a doctor by training and if being a doctor has helped me in Congress, and I...

I think where its helped me the most is as a doctor, were first trained to listen and ask questions and understand where our patients are coming from.

And I think I try to apply that to my colleagues and certainly I try to apply that to my constituents.

Rob: Congressman, I have a question about that.

Um, you know, the whole job of the speaker of the House really is to get legislation through.

So, does that mean nothing's happening?

Ami: So, essentially the House has come to a halt from a legislative perspective.

Now, there is a debate, and, you know, I err on the side that I think the speaker pro tem could actually, um, convene us and run things on the floor.

But the parliamentarian, um, hasn't quite ruled on that.

But in the meantime, we need a new speaker, um... You know, the Republican conference-- they're in the majority, a very narrow majority of only four votes-- has been unable to consolidate around a... a single candidate.

But there are certainly conversations and I'm friends with a lot of the Republican members.

Um, if they can't consolidate-- and I don't see how you get 217 Republicans to consolidate around a single candidate, could we come together as Democrats and Republicans and empower the speaker pro tem with, you know, maybe the next 45 days, the next 60 days?

Because we've got to do a budget, we've got to pass a foreign bill, we've got to reauthorize the... the FAA, the Federal Aviation Administration.

So, there are some real must-do things.

We've got to do supplemental funding for Israel.

We expect the White House will ask us and give us a list of the things that we need to do to support Israel.

We've still got the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine, and that is a national security issue for us here in the United States.

So, we've got to continue supporting the people-- the Ukrainian people, the folks that are fighting this fight.

Um, so, there is a lot that we have to be doing between now and the end of the year.

And maybe-- we do believe we can pass on the floor of the House, but it would have to be bipartisan legislation empowering, for the next 45, 60 days, the Speaker pro tem to actually, um, run the floor.

Rob: Which-- Ami: So, I think thats where we're going to end up.

Rob: Which goes back to your point in the very beginning that a very small few, um, people who are there to disrupt can really disrupt.

Ami: It-- 100%.

And, like, to the... to the viewers out there, that might be the West Wing moment where you see 120 Republicans, 150, 200 Democrats coming together to pass bipartisan legislation to get this place unstuck.

And I think if that happened, youve now marginalized the extremes and you can have a governing coalition in the... the middle.

Again, the Republicans are in the majority, so they'll continue to have the chairmanships on the committees.

But now we'll have to work together.

We'll have to negotiate.

It'll take both Republican and Democratic votes to pass legislation.

I think if we can get there, then I think, hopefully that builds, um, a new level of trust amongst the... the parties and amongst the center right, center left, and we can start moving this country forward.

Rob: How did we get to such divide?

How did we get to such polarization, and... and frankly-- and I use this word intentionally-- propaganda belief?

Ami: Yeah, so thats a complicated question.

I'll give my opinion of it.

You know, I think some of it you know, if go back to-- you know, I reference to ‘Tip O'Neill, who was a longstanding speaker of the House, a Democrat.

Um... there was a time where in the House of Representatives you had really strong committee chairs.

That's where the power resided within the committee chairs.

So, that's where legislation happened.

That's where you develop content expertise.

That's where you took the bills and mark them up and got them ready to come to the floor.

Um, but you had these strong committee chairs that really ran the institution and, um, a weaker leadership probably starting, you know, certainly going back to Newt Gingrich, um, in the early nineties.

Power started to consolidate around the leadership and the chairs became, um... less able to control legislation that came to the floor.

That certainly continued with Democrats uh, in... in... in power with Speaker Pelosi.

Um, but... but that hasn't changed.

In fact, I think that's part of the challenge.

So, you then have a few people, um, running the institution as opposed to the committees.

There has been a lot of discussion about giving power back to the committees.

Um, the other thing that, you know, if I think about, um, my time in Congress, this is my sixth term.

You know, something happened when Barack Obama got elected in 2008 and was sworn in in 2009.

If you remember that summer of 2009, and I was a candidate running, um, the Tea Party summer.

Like, the anger at these town halls and... and so forth around the... the Affordable Care Act.

Um, but there was more to it than that.

And you saw this wave election where Democrats lost 63 seats in the House of Representatives and they lost legislative seats all across this country where you had Republicans in the majority in the Governor's office, in the Assembly and Senate.

And that was a horrible time for that to happen, because that was a redistricting year.

And you'll hear people talk about the term gerrymandering.

So, all of these legislative and congressional seats were then drawn in such a way that, you know, they were 70, 80% Republican, 70 to 80% Democratic.

That didn't happen in California because citizens draw the lines in California.

But in most states, it's the legislature that draws the lines.

So... all of the-- Rob: State legislature.

Ami: State legislature, yes.

So, all of a sudden, you didn't need, um, the-- you're in a 80% Republican district.

You were never hearing from Democrats.

Um, if you were an 80% Democratic district, you were never hearing from Republicans.

And that really is a recipe for disaster ‘cause you're not... not hearing from folks that may have a different opinion.

I'm blessed-- and if you know, the... the viewers remember some of the... the really difficult races that... that I had, um, where we would be winning by a couple of thousand votes, here or there.

Its a purple district, um, where I've got to talk and listen to Republicans and Democrats.

Um, and that I think makes me a better legislature.

So the gerrymandering, I think, has also been corrosive to... to the institution.

Rob: What type of leader should someone be?

Ami: I think the-- a hallmark of a leader, um, starts with listening, starts with a level of humility.

We have this privilege to serve, and... and I'm honored.

I mean, this is the greatest honor of my life.

I'm the son of immigrants, and in one generation, I can be, you know, elected to one of the highest offices in... in the country as a member of Congress.

But we should hold that as.... as a precious honor that we're there to serve.

We're there to represent our constituents.

And it's not about me.

It's not about title.

It's-- you know, my legacy shouldn't be anything that I do, but it should be, how did I impact and affect the lives of those that I serve?

And then more broadly, um, did I leave my country in a better place?

Did I serve honorably?

Did, um, did I have the courage to... to stand up for the things that I believe in?

But at the same time, listen and understand that someone who may have 180 degree opposite, um, opinion, that doesn't make that person any less American than I am or, um... and be-- and... and I think we've lost some of that.

And I think we've gotta find our way back to this-- to some civil discourse.

Rob: That shows the polarization, if you will, the problem of it.

Because when you are divided and you're hearing messages that cater to one side or another, people are hearing, political scientists say, that theyre hearing what they want to hear instead of what they should hear, and that that is incredibly dangerous to democracy.

Do you agree?

Ami: I...

I...

I do agree.

I think, um, if you look at a map of our presidential elections or even congressional elections, you see a segregation of Democrats in-- on the coasts and in the big urban centers.

And then you see a big swath of red states, Republican states throughout the rural parts of this country.

So, weve segregated as a society.

Whereas if you look at those maps, 50 years ago, there were, um... if you remember, California used to routinely elect Republican governors.

Um, Republicans statewide, um, elected.

So, there was much more, um, desegregation, Democrats and Republicans living together.

And that was a good thing.

I also think the second thing that's really changed is-- I grew up in a family where we watch Walter Cronkite, um, but you really only-- you had the three major stations along with PBS.

Um...

But the news was the news.

Whatever station you were watching, you were getting pretty much the same news.

That's not the case today when you have cable news and-- you know, again, if you're a conservative, you might be going to Fox or Newsmax.

If you're a liberal, you might be going to, um, MSNBC.

So, you're not hearing um, an opposing opinion.

You're probably just reinforcing what you already believed.

And that probably then gets amplified based on the internet sites or the social media sites that... that you go to.

That's dangerous because I think it is really important for us to hear opposing views and have robust debate.

Um, and that probably does lead to some of the polarization that you see in America today.

Rob: Honest, opposing views.

It... it would-- And it's interesting to be talking to you about this as a physician.

You... you would not give information to a patient that one could consider not true.

You're giving your Ami: Right.

I mean-- expert opinion... and diagnosis.

Ami: Right.

My-- Ami: Exactly.

My, um, job as a doctor is really to listen to my patients, to ask questions, to gather information, but then to give them my honest opinion based on what I'm seeing, um, and then empower them to make the decision that's best in... in their... their choice.

So...

Rob: But the difference, I believe, is that as a physician, you will look someone in the face and tell them what they may want to hear or not.

Ami: Right.

So, again-- Rob: And as someone in Congress that may not be happening.

Ami: I mean, uh, you can-- a-- as a physician, you have to tell the truth and you have to-- and sometimes the truth is, ‘I'm not really sure what's going on.

Let's figure it out.

Um, so there's that ambiguity.

But that's what good doctors do.

Rob: It's a good litmus test.

Ami: It is.

So, but that isn't true necessarily in politics.

Um, and I think, you know, we need some of those honest brokers and statesmen, um, and they're there.

But we've got to give them opportunity to grow and... and... and that's... thats my hope.

I mean, the House may look, um, ungovernable today, but let's, you know, hope that bipartisanship at the end of the day rules the day, because that is how we have to govern in this country.

Rob: Um, I want to ask you, what caused-- what do you feel caused us to get to this historic vote in the House, ousting the speaker?

Ami: It didn't start last week.

I mean, if I think about my 11 years in Congress, when I first got here, John Boehner was speaker of the House, and the future of the Republican Party was Eric Cantor from Virginia, who was the number two Republican.

Paul Ryan was the face of the policy side of the... the Republican, um, Congress, and Kevin McCarthy was the rising star.

John Boehner... John Boehner got ground down to the point where in 2015 he quit mid term as... as... as speaker, um, and Kevin McCarthy was going to be the heir apparent.

But even back then in 2015, when he thought he was going to be elected speaker of the House, the conservative block-- blocked them from doing it.

And that's how Paul Ryan became speaker.

Now, Paul Ryan, who, um, you know, became speaker at the end of 2015 into 2016 when Donald Trump got elected, um, and he saw where the party was headed.

And Paul Ryan is a very conservative member, but I respect him because he was policy based.

He chose not to run for reelection in 2018.

And that doesn't happen when you're as young as Paul Ryan and you're speaker of the House, um, with all the power, um, that comes with being speaker.

Ami: Um, so, he got ground down- Rob: Those are big signs.

Ami: Right.

So, and now Kevin McCarthy, um, was speaker for less than 100 days roughly, um, that we're in session.

So, I mean, he got ground down as well.

So, there's something going on in the Republican conference.

That wasn't us doing anything as Democrats.

Um, that's something that's taking place within the Republican Party.

And I think the shock of the motion to vacate the chair passing and their-- I-- eight people ousting a Republican speaker, I think that was the shock that maybe the Republican conference needed, which will then allow us to govern in a bipartisan way.

Rob: That's very interesting.

It's very interesting.

Um... how do... how do you feel, and I know we touched on this earlier, but I...

I...

I really-- it boils down to the heart of the matter of what we're talking about.

And it's human decency and kindness, really.

And it's treating other people how you want to be treated.

Um, it's... it's the right thing.

Ami: Right.

Rob: How do we come together to stand up for what is right, not who is right, but what is right in Congress, on the floor?

We've seen shouting during State of the Union addresses.

We've seen behavior, um, and things said to fellow members that are horrendous.

How do we bring that... that back together and... and bring peace?

Ami: Remember, when we were all growing up, we all learned the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

And we ought to remember that golden rule.

We ought to try to live by that golden rule.

And that means, um, respect, dignity of others, um, even if they may have a viewpoint that's 180 degrees opposite your viewpoint.

Um, you know, the... the most respected leaders throughout history always walk with, um, that perspective.

Um... um... the most transformative leaders.

How do we gain some of that back, some of that civility?

You know, David Brooks, the New York Times columnist, um, is writing a lot about the breakdown of community in America-- um, the things that used to bind us together, whether that was a faith or a religious institution, um, community organizations.

The surgeon general, whom I'm friends with, Vivek Murthy, um, has published a book on the epidemic of loneliness in America.

I think that's a... a major problem that we have to figure out how to address.

That then also leads to, you know, the fentanyl use and everything else.

You now, there are a lot of people talking about that, particularly it's acute in young men in America.

That kind of leads to despair.

Um, I...

I don't have an answer to it, but I think we have to ask the right questions and understand the symptoms of what ails us as a nation in order for us to start addressing and fixing those ailments.

Rob: If... if you had to go down and... and address those, what would you say?

Ami: I...

I would say we should rebuild community-based, um, institutions.

The things that used to bring us together.

Um, you know, restoring, you know, whether that's faith-based institutions, community organizations, afterschool sports programs.

Get people out interacting again.

But how do we invest in our kids, right?

How do we invest in families?

Um... We should want our children and grandchildren to inherit a better country and a better world than we did.

Um, and to solve the challenge-- the challenges that we have, it is going to take all of us coming together as Americans.

But it-- also for something like climate change, it's going to take all of us coming together as, um, humans on this planet if we want to, you know, have a better future for our kids.

Rob: Thereve... thereve always been issues that families face, but when it... when it seeps down, when... when propaganda or bullying or divide seeps down into the home and divides, then that goes back to the division of your local institutions, your local gatherings.

The divide is deep.

But... but this is the United States of America.

And we can do this.

Ami: We sure can, right.

I mean, it's still the best, brightest country on the planet.

From my perspective.

Rob: If we can keep it.

Ami: Right, we've got to fight for it.

Rob: If you could say something right now to the entire country, what would it be?

Ami: I would say, believe in who we are as Americans, but believe in who we are as... as a... as a planet.

And, you know, find that best part of yourself and then show that best part of your self.

Um... you know, it's important for us to-- if we want to heal our nation, we've got to heal our community.

We've got to heal our families.

Um... And we can do this.

Like, we are the United States of America.

And the world needs us to show up right now.

Rob: What is your, um... when you start your day and you go to your office and you go, you know, on to the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives, what is your personal... what is-- where do you come from personally when you do that?

Ami: I think from a place of gratitude, right?

I mean, I'm grateful to have this opportunity to give back to the country that I've received so much from and to a world that I think is a beautiful place.

Um, so, if I can start from that place of gratitude, of grace and hopefully maintain that and carry myself with that grace and dignity, hopefully that does impact others.

And again, I, um... have a lot of Republican friends and, you know, I think when we legislate, I also try to think about, okay, well, who's a Republican that we can work with on this piece of legislation?

‘Cause you know, anything that you want to really, um, pass is going to be, um, bipartisan.

And, you know, I'm a believer that you will come up with better ideas if you have a diversity of opinions.

Rob: Congressman Ami Bera, I am so grateful for your time and thank you for joining us from... from your Washington office.

It's good to see you.

Ami: Great, thanks.

Good to see you, Rob.

Be well.

Rob: You too.

Rob: We will see you next time right here on Rob at Home.

Stay with PBS KVIE.

Thanks for joining us.

You can watch when you want at robontheroad.org.

Murphy Austin Adams Schoenfeld, LLP focusing on business law and commercial litigation, is proud to support Rob on the Road - Region Rising.

More information available murphyaustin.com.