Annc: Murphy Austin Adams Schoenfeld, LLP, focusing on business law and commercial litigation is proud to support Rob on the Road Region Rising.

More information available at murphyaustin.com Rob: Coming up: did you know, a Sacramento County court rules with compassion, courage, and second chances?

This is Superior Court, Judge Lawrence Brown.

He runs Mental Health Court with hundreds of active cases.

His work has garnered statewide praise and even helped bring his own family closer together.

Annc: And now Rob on the Road, exploring Northern California.

Rob: Joining me now from Sacramento is judge Lawrence Brown.

It is so good to see you Judge Brown.

We've been talking about this for years and it happened.

Larry: Rob, thank you very much.

And let's get this out of the way first, please call me Larry.

Rob: Okay, I'll try my hardest.

But, um, Judge Brown, it's great to see you.

Larry: You too.

Rob: And I'm so glad you're here, Larry.

Thank you.

I want to talk to you right off the bat, this is... this is such a powerful program that you have and thank you for allowing me to sit in last week and watch how this works.

I'm blown away.

Larry: Well thank you for taking the time to do it, Rob.

Rob: This is an entire group of people that is all- they're all there to help the person in need.

And let's talk about, first of all, tell me what this, what Mental Health Court exactly is.

Larry: Well, it's essentially, we'll call it a diversionary court to take it out of a traditional criminal track.

Um, and it's designed to get the person out of jail.

And to have them on probation through our court, and to then have the focus be on their treatment.

And so frankly, by the time a person completes my court, um, I will barely remember what got them into the court as compared to getting to know who they are, which is very different than a traditional criminal court.

Rob: I noticed when we were in session, of course we were all on Zoom-— Larry: Yeah.

Rob: Or web-based platforms because of COVID, but there were so many people involved in each case.

Larry: A good number.

We've got everything from- and it's a tremendous team and I'm honored to be part of our... of our team.

Uh, we have County Behavioral Health.

We have all the agencies that provide community-based services for this population.

We have County Alcohol and Drug.

Uh, then of course we have, uh, the Probation Department, District Attorney's Office, Public Defender's Office, uh, everyone working in concert to kind of, you know, advance this mission of treatment for the person in the court.

While of course holding them accountable.

Rob: And so it appears to me that when someone is and the process of... of the court program, is it a year?

Larry: It's a year minimum before they're eligible to graduate.

But some could be in our court for a year and a half, two years, two and a half years.

We don't throw in the towel easily.

Rob: And along the way, they're checking in with... with their various members of their, um, their support group, if you will, be it- and be it the counselors, the probation officers, and then they give updates to verify how the person is doing.

Larry: That's exactly it.

So, we ended up having a team meeting, they're called multidisciplinary team meetings, uh, the week in advance and we get a rundown from each of their treatment providers as to how's the person doing?

Are they taking their medication?

Are they going to the doctor's appointments?

Are they, uh, obeying, uh, restraining orders, whatever might be part of their probation grant.

And then we're determining really as a team, uh, what we- the tone that we will take with that person when they appear on my calendar on that given date.

Rob: Hmm.

That's already pre -set, the tone.

Larry: It is.

I- you know, essentially, I'm channeling what the, uh, sort of consensus was among the team.

That's why these are called collaborative courts or collaborative justice courts.

Um, which also include things like drug court, veteran's court.

And the concept is that whatever advocacy goes on, let's say between your district attorney and your public defender, that happens in the team meeting that we have before I would ever take the bench for the case itself.

So that by the time I'm on the bench, they'll know kind of roughly what I'm going to say and how I'm going to say it.

And really, it's about whether we are encouraging, applauding what the person's been doing or giving a reminder that they need to do better or having it be kind of a stern parent, uh, if that's warranted, not try to channel what the consensus was.

Rob: That's so interesting.

I did not know that until you just said that.

But I do remember watching that entire day and, or that afternoon and... and... and wondering how in the world you knew what tone to take with each person that came to you and it's because you had already gotten all the information from everyone involved and you guys planned it.

Larry: That'’s exactly it.

And the other thing I've learned to do over time, Rob, is that as I learned personal information about a person, you know, the name of their cat, uh, do they have children?

What are their hobbies?

Um, I have a court staff member who keeps notes for me as I learn those little nuggets of information.

Those then show up on my particular calendar so I can glance down and then have something personal with which to interact with that person.

Cause you know, you can only talk so much about, are you taking your medication versus how was Fluffy and then, Oh boy, people want to talk about their pets.

And so, I've found that to really bear a lot of fruit.

Rob: I...

I have to tell you, I'm so glad that when I was in the session with you, that you turned the camera off that I was on because half the time I was crying-— Larry: Oh!

[laughs] Rob: It was that moving, because for many of the people that were there, I felt like you were their last and maybe first hope.

Larry: Thank you for saying that.

It... it almost makes me a little choked up, you saying it.

Um... you know, you probably can see it's a huge, I feel it's a huge privilege that I get to perform this role, um, for our court, for our community.

And to know that I'm having some, I hope positive impact on the lives of some of our most vulnerable, uh, people.

Um, you know, when people talk about, you know, finding meaningful work to do in one's life, as part of overall wellness, I sort of have an embarrassment of riches, uh, when it comes to, uh, the type of work that I get to do.

Rob: You know, you were on, if I'm not mistaken on... on rotation, on the bench, as it... as it goes.

And after this specific court, you asked to be permanently assigned to this court.

And I believe... was that with Governor Schwarzenegger or were you... were you appointed for that with Governor Schwarzenegger?

Larry: So, I was appointed by Governor Schwarzenegger to our court, um, in 2010.

And then, yeah, it was really by serendipity that I inherited the Mental Health Court in 2013.

So, I'm entering my 9th year.

It was an ancillary assignment in a court that I had been assigned to.

And... once I found what a good fit it seemed to be, and that was the feedback I was getting from people I respected greatly, I then asked my presiding judge if I could adopt the court.

So even when I went back to doing jury trials, my juries would not be in session on the day or days that I had mental health court.

So, I could continue to have the interaction with the participants, uh, each week.

Rob: I saw several of the participants, um, come on as their time came up and they talked with you respectfully like a friend, and I can see that you had developed a rapport along the way.

It was graduation for someone when I was, um-— Larry: Yup.

Rob: With you last week and the joy that this person felt to have gotten through this stage of... of life is huge.

Um, it was as if he had been given a new life.

Larry: In many respects he has been.

You know, this, the... the hope and the goal is that by the time a person graduates the court they'll develop such better insights into their triggers, what risks they run, importance of staying on their treatment regimen, taking their medication, that the odds are so much greater of them not getting in trouble again going forward.

Uh, and that, you know, gives us a lot of confidence that it's worth the effort.

Rob: You know, the statistics back up what you're saying.

A new report out says that 70, almost 73% of people that come through your court are successful graduates of the program.

Larry: Mhm.

Rob: That's big.

Larry: It is, and it's, you know, reflects again, it's all the work by the team to make that happen.

And then the extraordinary work by the participants themselves, oftentimes with supportive family members who are very engaged and supportive of, you know, whether it's their offspring, their sibling, their spouse, what have you, um, successfully navigating our court.

Rob: How does somebody get to be a participant in your court when something happens, um, in life?

How do they find themselves in front of you versus not?

Larry: Essentially the credit would go to our public defenders, uh, most often, sometimes private counsel, uh, but they will be made aware or they'll learn very quickly that their client who's typically in custody at the jail court, um, has a serious mental illness.

And that then gets a process going of looking at whether or not they might be eligible, suitable to join our court or to be in misdemeanor diversion court with two of my respected colleagues.

Um, and so there's a process that goes on to screen the cases.

If it looks as if the person, um, potentially qualifies then the District Attorney also has to sign off and agree that the case should be accepted to the court because it's a collaborative court, it's the defense and the prosecutor coming together to say, this is a good candidate.

Then they come in front of me to be, uh, sentenced.

Rob: So, this is kind of a hard question to ask, but I have to ask, it sounds like it takes someone getting in trouble, um... to get some of the resources they need.

And I say that with complete empathy.

Larry: And...

I don't think you're way off the mark in that.

And I've had, you know, countless discussions over the years with, you know, families at different, you know, community gatherings just at wit's end as to wanting to be able to do something for a seriously mentally ill loved one, but not really having the tools to be able to do that.

And, you know, they will almost be crying out, you know, does it require a person get arrested and maybe get to your court?

And it's not as bleak as that.

But, at the same time, it's very difficult to compel someone to, for example, take medication if they don't want to take their medication.

Rob: We talked about family, um, very close to yours and to your own.

And you are recently speaking, uh, publicly about this.

And this is something that we had talked about quite a while back-— Larry: Yes.

Rob: And, now things have evolved and... and happened in your life, which is great, that'’ll allow you to successfully talk about this.

Larry: Yeah.

Rob: Tell me about your sister.

Larry: Um, so my sister Eileen.

So, I'm the fourth of five kids and Eileen was my next oldest sibling.

She's five years older than I am.

And you know, now a good 40 years ago is when she had a major, um, you know, mental health break with schizophrenia.

And, you know, I was in my teens, um, and you know, didn't really fully appreciate everything going on other than it just seemed like overnight, suddenly, it was no longer the same person.

And she had to be hospitalized, and, um, it's been a very serious mental illness that she's had over these many decades.

Um, she lives in Santa Rosa, uh, where I grew up.

Um, and you know, for anybody who has experienced this, it's... it's a... it's a traumatic event for loved ones, uh, because the sense of loss.

And then frankly, I guess, a good, healthy dose of Catholic guilt of not being probably as involved in her life for a good number of years, uh, leaving that to my parents and particularly my mother, uh, to sort of deal with all of that unpleasant type of stuff.

So, I can go on and live my fun life instead, right.

Rob: Well, you say that... you say that very hard on yourself, but I would also like to... to point out that... had that not been the way that this might not be your work today.

Larry: Thank you.

And, uh, I, you know, I give a lot of thought to this, you know, in terms of... some reason why I ended up kind of doing what I'm doing.

And, uh, you know, uh, I didn't seek out the Mental Health Court because of Eileen.

Um, I always say, wouldn'’t that be a nice story?

In some ways I- the trepidation I had was because of some of those dynamics I just described.

But what I found was that once I started to do the court, you know, I could relate so well with people because of my sister.

I love my sister.

And, uh, you know, I know that she's still there.

Um, she's just, hadn't been saddled with this, you know, uh, difficult thing throughout her entire adult life.

Um, but that I can sort of pay it forward.

Um, and I talk about her regularly in the court as someone who has lived a better life by the fact that she takes her medication.

And, you know, I see her now all the time, I saw her on Christmas.

I took my son to go see her on, uh, on Christmas.

And, you know, in many ways this court has given me the courage to, um, have a more, a closer relationship with my own sister.

Because I felt like if I can talk to 40 to 50, uh, non-relative strangers each week on a court about mental illness, I think I can go see my sister.

Rob: Who would have ever thought that the trajectory of your career would... would marry with your... with your personal life in such a way that is hard to question.

Larry: Yeah.

Rob: I'm just..

I'm happy for you.

I really am.

We're very blessed when our paths and our purposes intersect, and I think we're at a divine spot when that happens.

Larry: I...

I agree with you that there, you know, there's something that is bordering on spiritual when these types of things occur.

And one of my, you know, heroes when I was growing up was my uncle who was a Catholic priest, he's deceased now.

But you know, he was a rock star to me when I would, you know, watch him do a sermon at his church and all that.

And I in many ways have sort of felt like in this role, you know, you're sort of serving as a minister in a way, you know, I...

I sometimes almost joke like, well bring me your malady, or bring me your drug addicted, bring me your recently incarcerated.

You know, they're... they're kind of the people I am spending most of my days dealing with in a very personal way.

And if you had told me that in my 20 plus years as a local prosecutor, as a federal prosecutor, as head of the state district attorney organization, that this is how I'd be, you know, spending this part of my career, um, I don't think I would have believed it.

Rob: What have you learned from the people that come into your courtroom who are struggling with mental illness?

Um, what have they taught you?

Larry: Humility.

Um...

Rob: How so?

Larry: Well, you know, they share so openly about what they're dealing with, what they're trying to address and the like that you just, you can't help but feel humbled by having that type of personal connection.

Um, but also, I think it's taught me perspective that we all have our daily challenges in life and we can feel sorry for ourselves sometimes when things aren't going that great.

And then I see folks who've been dealt a really difficult hand in life and they're keeping up their spirits, and they are doing the hard work and under very difficult circumstances.

I mean, some of them are homeless yet they're still going to their doctor's appointment and they're still showing up on my court calendar.

Um, you know, many of them are living well below the poverty line and have immense, uh, you know, financial challenges, housing instability, but yet there they are doing what they're supposed to be doing, what they promised to do.

And many times, doing it with a great attitude.

And so, part of me feels like, "“Well, Judge Brown, what are you complaining about?

"” Right.

Buck up.

Rob: You know, I have to tell you when I was in your court, um, observing one of the graduates that day, I looked up and it was a very publicized incident that got this young man into your courtroom.

It was... it was all over the news.

And I never heard once that the person was suffering from mental illness.

And I just want to encourage people to hold judgment for any reason of another person, because you never know what someone's going through during a time of... of crisis.

Larry: Most of the time, by the time they graduate, I don't remember the case that got him into my court.

Rob: That stuck with me when you said that.

Larry: It's all about... all about who they are.

And again, you know, we're very careful as a community and the district attorney is not going to, you know, let someone in that they don't think can ultimately perform in the court.

I mean, public safety is a very important, um, you know, focus for our DA, Anne Marie, uh, Schubert in her office as well as it should be.

And, but... that doesn't mean though that everybody then needs to stay behind bars.

Um, once a person has a now back on their medication and are doing well again, having them continue to serve lengthy sentences in the jail, um, is not really the most humane way of having a justice system.

I mean, our sheriff does a really, I think a very good job in terms of having mental health staff to attend to people, uh, to be sure.

And UC Davis assists with that endeavor.

Uh, but you know, a number of these folks are better to be back in the community, uh, being supervised, being held accountable, um, because they didn't really know what they were doing.

They weren't insane when they did the crime, but they were not of right mind.

Rob: Mhm.

Do they typically remember it?

Larry: I think so.

Um, and it may not be with a great clarity.

Um, and I will, you know, when they were entering my court, we're doing a change of plea and I bring up how important medication is and they're in custody, I'll say, "“Are you on your medication right now?

"” "“Yes, judge.

"” And I'll say, "“Well, let me take a guess, were you not on your medication when you picked up this offense?

"” "“No judge.

I was not.

"” And you know, they know that it wasn't fully who they really are when they did that offense.

But I think they generally have an idea as to what they did, but the rationale for why they did it may no longer be clear in their head.

Well over three quarters of people who have a serious mental illness, also have a substance use disorder, or a drug addiction, or alcoholism, or a combination thereof.

And probably what happened, oftentimes was when they were quite young in their early teens, their mental illness may not have been diagnosed yet, they started to do something, some type of drug that pleased that brain and that sets a lifetime of addictive behavior.

And so, it- to then have mental illness in that mix, it's a very complicated, you know, treatment challenge.

And we're so fortunate in this community that we have these dedicated professionals who work with this population day in and day out.

I mean, they do the hard work.

I...

I always say I get the...

I get the drive by.

You know, they're coming to my court every so often, and I'm seeing them in this one setting, but the social worker, the case manager who goes and picks them up every day or takes them to their appointments and all that.

They're the heroes.

Rob: Um, a lot of heroes have also come through your courtroom and graduated and your program.

And I...

I can only imagine the number of stories that you have, um, in your head and in your heart forever.

Um, do you run into people in public who you have graduated?

Larry: I have.

And in fact, I... just, not too long ago, a young gentleman, uh, I saw him near a Starbucks and, uh, to be honest, I didn't recognize him.

And he, "“Judge, hey!

I graduated your court!

"” "“Oh, good to see you!

"” And he said, "“I'm still taking my medication, is your sister?

"” And the fact that he remembered...

Rob: Oh!

Larry: That I would bring that up.

Um, the fact that that connected to him, um, and that he was, you know, bringing that up right there on the street... You know, I've run into any number of people, uh, over time.

And, uh, you know, it's funny, I think for them to see me out of context, uh, sometimes it's odd for me to see them out of context.

Um, but it's always been a warm interaction when I have.

Rob: I absolutely love that.

And I...

I hope your sister, um, knows that there are people who are doing the right steps for their lives because of her.

Larry: And she does.

I tell her, I say, "“Look, I...

I brag about you in court, Eileen.

I talk about the fact that you're taking your medication, how well you've been doing and all that, as an example for other people.

"” And I know that she's pleased, uh, that I, uh, do that.

Rob: Judge Lawrence Brown, it is so good to see you here today on Rob at Home.

You are always welcome here and thank you for sharing such a special story.

Not only about your courtroom, but about your family.

And I appreciate all that you have shared.

Larry: Thank you.

Rob: Thank you.

♪♪ Annc: Murphy Austin Adams Schoenfeld, LLP, focusing on business law and commercial litigation is proud to support Rob on the Road Region Rising.

More information available at murphyaustin.com.