♪♪ Scott: From Jack Johnson to Colin Kaepernick, Black athletes and their expressions of celebration and protest has been a controversial topic among sports fans, commentators, and, of course, the players, themselves.

Chico State professor and author of Policing the Black Athlete, Dr. Vernon Andrews, joins us today to discuss what makes this issue so charged and how it relates to the current debates between players and the public that watches them.

Dr. Andrews, you open the book with a discussion of the varied reactions to Colin Kaepernick's starting the "take the knee" movement.

What's the connection between Kaepernick's physical act of protest and the historic actions of American society in controlling and critiquing what you call quote-unquote "Black expression?"

Vernon: Yeah.

Well, that's a... a good question to start off with, and, uh, thanks for the invitation to talk about this, what I think of as an exciting book that does many different things.

Uh, so thanks for being here.

And I...

I would have to say that... that I...

I try to If I took a bird's eye view from way up, 30,000 feet, and looked down, what I would see is this control of the athlete uh, excuse me control of African Americans in society, but also in sport.

A tight reign on clothing, on hairstyles, on what people do in the end zone, on tossing your bat, or Rickey Henderson doing a snatch catch.

People bring in their individuality to the sport, and also, sometimes, in protest.

And Muhammad Ali serves as sort of a centerpiece of the book because he was the initiator of a lot of that protest that really led to this wave of athletes, even today.

It's You can draw a direct line to that.

So, I look at Colin Kaepernick along that continuum, which is, uh, not only control of the body, but expression with the body.

And what he was expressing was his distaste for the continued American denial of the freedom of expression in society, and in the freedom of movement, such that we have police incidents left and right.

Scott: And, incidentally, there's even an expression that, uh, was quoted in your book, uh, that was in a Washington Post story, called "being Kaepernicked."

Well, what exactly is that?

Vernon: Well, I haven't mentioned "being Kaepernicked," but I...

I think, uh, if... if I had said What was the context of this?

Uh, I'm Scott: It was in It was talking about, um, what ha has been done to Colin Kaepernick in terms of, uh, the trajectory of his career, and that other players who took similar stands were now being They And they used the term "Kaepernicked."

Vernon: Oh, okay.

I see what you mean.

Yes.

Yeah.

Uh, Eric Reid, among others.

Scott: Yes.

Vernon: Uh, I...

I guess that's a... that's a... a more formal way, or a different way, of saying "blacklisted," which is, basically, if you do that, you want a list of people who protest and, therefore, may be bad for business.

Scott: Okay.

You mentioned Ali as the centerpiece of the book, and I want to talk about Muhammad Ali for a second.

You write the following: "We praise him," you're speaking about Ali, "for his mor mortal moral fortitude," but many, both black and white, viewed him, at the time, as a traitor to Christianity, as a race, and to the America that had given him the money and the freedoms that he complained about.

How do you explain the evolution from the angry reactions you highlight in the book against Black athletes, like Ali, and him, specifically, acting in celebration and protest, with the arc of his history, where he went from vilified to lionized in a generation?

Vernon: Sure, and I will say that there was a difference in how African American and white viewed him.

For different reasons, they didn't like him.

African Americans were skeptical of this thing called Black, uh, the Black Muslims.

They were, uh, because Christianity had sort of given us just about everything, so to speak.

According to many Christians, they it had given us, uh, some freedoms, uh, actually a place to express ourselves, free from white control.

So, you're going against our... our religion, and you're speaking up and you're possibly making things more difficult for us because of your mouth.

So, pipe down, because that's what we've always done since Jack Johnson, actually, and that's why Jackie Robinson and Joe Louis did all those things that you that Jack Johnson didn't do.

You're supposed to stay away from white females, not mention anything about, uh, uh, uh, race, unless it's in a positive manner.

All of those things were sort of, uh, anti-Jack Johnson.

So, when Ali started this, people were like, "Wait a minute.

We get along.

Uh, we... we try to get along until, you know, till we... till we get along even more, and... and get some sort of, uh, advantages in society.

You are messing it up.

Be quiet.

Don't get in white people's spaces like that."

So, I think it took a generation to get away from, uh, the sixties and the seventies and the eighties, when people became so oriented with "me."

I mean, the "me" generation, as they say.

So, by the time Ali steps out into the Olympics in Atlanta in 1996, during halftime of, um, a dream team basketball game, and gets his gold medal back, that is the moment that crystallized it.

Maybe, also, obviously lighting the torch.

But this was his year, and this was Atlanta's way of saying, "You know what?"

and the Olympic committee's way of saying, "We recognize this.

You threw your medal away because it was a racist America, and you were upset by coming to the south.

We want to give you that gold medal back, that was lost that's what they, uh, used and... and people realized, "Wait a minute.

This was a guy who cared about more than himself.

This guy was from a different time.

He represented an integrity that many of us lack.

Maybe he was right."

In Over the ravages of time, yes, it turns out he was right about that war.

It ended poorly, and he his conscientious objection was a conscientious objection, because he had left his wife because she refused to be a Muslim.

He, uh, married to her for nine, uh, nine months, and she says, "No, I'm not going to do that.

I told you I was, but I'm not."

He said, "Well, I have a vow.

And my vow was that, you know, this was going to happen.

So, we have to divorce."

As painful as it was, he was devoted to, uh, to the religion in ways that most people aren't devoted to their religion.

And so, that conscientious objection, um, was real, and, eventually, people understood it, much later in life.

And, again, nine in the nineties.

Scott: And... and, based on that history, 20 years from now, do you think that in retrospect, that there will be a recalibration, over time, with the views of Colin Kaepernick and his protest?

Vernon: Yes, and I think it'll happen sooner than that.

And, again, we're talking about two different types of... of... of two groups basically, uh, in this conversation, at least.

For... for African Americans, I think, there... there... there wasn't much argument with what he was doing.

Some people were upset.

Naturally, there's always going to be, uh, uh, differences.

But more African Americans agreed with what he was doing, especially after what happened with George Floyd and everything else.

It's like, "Oh, wait a minute.

Okay.

Yes."

Even the NFL said that, in essence, he was right, and all those protests were right.

So, it's going to happen in a much shorter time, uh, for... for African Americans.

Uh, for most, there was no time.

It was like, "We get this, finally.

Thank you for standing up."

But with whites, it... it there was a lot more that I put into the chapter about their negative views.

Those negative views, by some, will never leave, Scott.

Will never leave.

It'll always be there.

Scott: Well, let's... let's talk about that and come back to, sort of, the grounding principles of your exploration of this topic.

Explain for all of us What is the term, as you use it, "celebration," and what makes it such a charged issue, particularly within professional sports?

Vernon: Yeah, and... and here's where you start to notice all the contradictions and all the hypocrisy.

So, I just want to coat everything with that.

So, the idea is that, uh, I...

I...

I describe "celebration" as something that you would do in an excitable moment, when you have a success event.

A success event could be a... a... a three -point play, a slam dunk, a home run, or a touchdown.

Those are some of the many things that were success events.

Specifically, in football, with that success event, what is your behavior once you enter into that moment?

And, in white culture, and... and many African Americans have learned this idea about humility, uh, and learned through the Bible about how Jesus acted, and so, we're all in... in this... this phase of... of, you know, graciousness in victory and... and humility in defeat.

All of those things, actually the reverse of that.

I...

I think that people say one thing.

They say that we don't want people to celebrate and be expressive because that hurts the other person, and, for African Americans, it's like, "Well, you... you have nothing to do with this.

This is about me, and the crowd, and that fourth wall I'm breaking down.

This is what I just did.

It has nothing to do " I'll do the same Scott: Fourth... fourth wall?

Fourth wall?

What does that mean?

Vernon: Yes.

Yes.

I...

I'm sorry.

I just threw a concept Uh, Erving Goffman talked about, uh, being "on stage" in life, when we leave the house.

There's a... there's a side stage, there's a backstage this is his analogy and then, there's a front stage.

So, people are helping you on the sides, coaches and whatnot, and people behind you, but there's a wall between the... wall between the audience and... and the actors, and the athletes.

And for white society, that wall should remain there.

You're an athlete, just performing sport in front of nobody.

And for African Americans, that fourth wall is broken down.

They were waving at people, and pointing at people, and looking at the camera and interacting with it, and in a way that shocks the... the... the white framework, because it's like, "No, there's a wall there.

We don't exist.

Pretend we don't exist."

And, for African Americans, there's no pretending white people don't exist.

Every day, when we look at life, we have to... we have to be aware and conscious of our environments.

So, we're always aware.

So, "playing to the audience" comes from that idea of, uh, also, the Black church, where there's a call and response.

You can't be up there, as a minister giving a sermon, unconcerned about your audience giving the same sermon.

"I'm going to tell you what I told you I was going to tell you.

Therefore, we're going to go home and live a great life."

No.

African Americans need this needed this purge, 'cause this was the only place to express oneself.

So, when you learn this, and it gets filtered through the culture into communities, for my ministers and the choirs and our deacons and everything else, we bring it into sport and we try to maintain that consistency.

And that's a big thing in... in African American culture, being able to maintain your consistency of self across different dimensions, so that you're not fake.

"Oh, man, that brother's faking it over there."

"Oh, you know what?

He's... he's just perpetrating."

Right?

No, this is who I am.

And this is who I am today, yesterday, and tomorrow, in any setting that I'm in.

That's a high standard.

Scott: What... what do you think makes this, uh, Black expression that... that takes place in professional spor sports You... you referenced the white community.

Why do you think that there's such a visceral reaction against it?

Vernon: I think the visceral reaction against it is... is because of norms, is because of family norms.

You know, the things our families tell us to do at the table, and around the house.

And, when you invited a first date home, uh, you knew that if that person had a habit in eating that your parents weren't going to like, you... you let them know in advance.

"Hey.

It's okay with me, but my parents don't like elbows on the table.

They don't like people burping at the table or chewing with your mouth open."

All those things we learn at home come out into the open.

And I think that, uh, it's great when you can be humble, when you can afford to be humble because your life has been full.

When your life hasn't been full, and you don't have many opportunities to celebrate the beautifulness of life, and you get an opportunity, you succeed at something.

"You know what?

I'm going to suc show my success, not only for myself, but that you can see, someone else can see my... my joy, and you can try to achieve that."

Now, unfortunately, quite often, that's in sport, but I'm hoping, and... and the hope is that people can transfer that to the other things that they do.

I...

I have a story in the book about that, when I talk about being at the Oakland Coliseum, and I talk about playing catch with kids in the, uh, in the Coliseum parking lot.

And the little, uh, kid My nephew and this little kid, you know, they were running around talking about Pokémon this and Pokémon that, and he says... he says, "Hey, I heard you're a professor and you... you teach in college.

Wow!"

And my initial response was what I was trained to do in New Zealand, which was to downplay any success.

So, I told him I said, "Oh, yeah, that's no big deal.

Go out there for a pass," but I realized during that pass that I wasn't really a New Zealander.

I'm a citizen of New Zealand, and I lived there for 14 years, but this is my community that I have the most concern about.

So, when he came back, I said...

I said, "Kneel down for a second.

Let me tell you something," and I kneeled down to talk to him, and I just said, "You know, I...

I grew up 1.3 miles from here, right over there on those on that hillside in Oakland.

And I came here, and I hung out at the A's games, and I hung out in the parking lot, just like you.

You can also be a professor."

And I gave him this little talk about looking for what he Whatever it was, it was about a minute worth of stuff that came out of my face at him.

And he was like, "Wow!

Okay."

I said, "Then, go out for another pass."

I felt it was my responsibility to be true to him for where I had gotten, because he hadn't seen that before.

He needs to know.

So, I think that when African Americans express themselves and come back with a big car, whatever else, they're communicating to people that you can also succeed.

And if I was not to do that, if I was just to pretend that it was normal, and no big deal, and I'm humble, and everybody has this kind of success in life, that's a disservice to him.

That's a disservice to that community.

And that's a disservice to African Americans.

Scott: Now, all that being said, you point out in the book that there is no monolith within the African American community on this, because things like how you were raised, the geography you come from, and the like, is that there's not a uniform, uh, way of expressing oneselves, or deciding what's appropriate or not.

Correct?

Vernon: Certainly.

And I...

I will say that in... in backing up that I do want to say something.

When I mentioned Black and white When I mentioned white, I don't mean all white people.

Now, I'm a sociologist.

There's never... there's never any 100% agreement upon anything.

As a matter of fact, I would say the reverse.

Many whites, especially many young whites, do appreciate expression and celebration, and the bringing of Black language into everyday language.

So there Scott: Well... well, I...

I actually wanted to ask you about that because, uh, as... as much as you're focused on the... the concept of Black expression, it does raise the issue, for me, of class that goes across race or, you know, the... the, essentially, the adoption by other groups of these norms within the African American community.

My case example, that I'd like you to respond to, is Colin McGregor or Conor McGregor, who, um, you know, seems to be not very reserved or laid back, in terms of his own expressions.

Vernon: Right.

Right.

You know, I...

I always laughed, uh, but now, kinda, it... it makes a big case People will always talk about Irish as, like, the Black people of Europe.

And... and I've heard that, and I had to sort of deconstruct all that.

I...

I...

I don't think I think what they're saying is they're, uh, at the bottom of the totem pole, in terms of, uh, white culture in the past.

And them and they were the ones that were kicked around.

They came to the U.S.

They weren't even considered white.

They had to lobby for... for years to become to be considered white.

Same for Italians, and same for, uh, uh, for Jews in America.

And so, when I see that, I think what Conor is doing is playing on that a little bit, saying, "You know what?

Um, we have all this... this... this upper -class stuff, and you get the best of our tennis and golfers, but I'm a boxer.

And I'm from the hardcore part of Ireland.

And, sure, I grew up having fights, but I'm going to talk like the people talk on the street.

I'm going to be who... who they are, and who I am.

And that, again, that consistency across situations, when you're the low, uh, person on the totem pole, uh and many women have to experience this when they come into organizations you have to kind of tone down whoever you are.

And, I think, for Conor, he is in a sport that... that Muhammad Ali came up in.

My goodness.

To get attention, you do what Ali did.

Ali did what he did, in talking and picking rounds, not only because that was part of his fun personality, but he realized that whether you love me or hate me, you're going to want to come see me either get beat, or beat someone else.

So, my braggadocio is gonna either upset you, or it's going to embolden you.

Scott: But that's one of the reasons that, I think, that this gets, uh, uh, uh, a bit complicated because one of, uh, the earliest movies I ever saw was the story of Babe Ruth, and there are many stories, whether true or not, about Babe Ruth pointing to where he was going to hit a home run.

And that's just as predictive as Ali saying, uh, "I'm going to end it in 13."

So, I...

I...

I...

I believe It... it... it would just seem that that would cross dimensions, with regards to race, class, and other things as well.

Vernon: Well, it does, and it... it really is an individual thing.

It's just that when it happens with whites, it's a bit of an outlier.

I mean, if you look at the, you know, uh, the... the... the bell-shaped curve, there are going to be a few people out here on the end, who are expressive.

Very expressive.

And history I mean, uh, Brett Favre, uh, Aaron Rodgers, many other people, uh, Mark "The Bird" Fidrych in... in baseball.

And, uh, in And... and, again, many others.

In basketball, uh, Pete Maravich.

But I think it tends to be an outlier.

And... and I do want to say about the... about the Babe Ruth incident, that I You know, it... it's something important, and since I was looking at white expressive athletes over history, that moment was probably the biggest moment for "braggadocio" whatnot.

And so, I looked it up, and I read the entire history of that moment and the recap of that history.

And he agreed that he didn't point to any place, specifically.

He just waved his bat around, like he always did, and he hit a home run.

Because the pitcher who was pitching against him was interviewed, and he says, "Babe Ruth knows, and everybody on the field and in baseball knows that if he did that, he'd be going down the next time he came up."

He didn't do that.

And they as... they asked Babe Ruth, and he says, "Yeah," he says, "I just had a habit of, really, pointing to the outfield, in general, because that was my thing to do before I...

I hit.

I'd do all my motions and I'd point it and then, I...

I'd be ready.

So, that was But... but Babe Ruth was one of those people.

If he Even if he didn't do that, he was... he was a person that believed in, "You know what?

I'm big.

Life is big.

Get me the cigars.

Give me the fur coats, the big..." Everything.

Joe Willie Namath in his time.

Scott: Right.

I...

I want to go back to your beginning, and your inspiration for this book.

In this In the book, you talk about the story of a person named Valrey, and a race you watched when you were in high school.

Share that story with us and what you drew from that event, that informed the work that led to this book.

Vernon: Right.

Well, that event happened in roughly, I mean, if I had to I think it's '72, uh, I think I mentioned.

Anyway, I was I was in the eighth grade.

That's what I was about 14 years old.

So, I came home, uh, from Alexander Hamilton Junior High School, walked to my house, which was about five blocks away from Fremont High School.

There was a big track meet.

So, I decided to walk on in and take a look through the... through the fence.

And for the last event I got there, maybe, and saw, maybe 30 minutes of it, but for the last event, everyone stood up on their feet.

And there was just this roar, this murmur through the crowd.

And I was like, "Whoa, what's about to happen?"

It was the 4 by, I guess, 4 by 440.

It was... it was... it was a relay race, where they had to, uh, give a sprint of about 110 yards each.

So, on the anchor leg of the match, that's what was it, the last person to get the baton, for Castlemont High School, which was the rival high school on the Oakland East Oakland flat flat lands, to Fremont.

Well, Fremont was ahead.

Valrey got the baton, maybe three or four lengths behind, which is a huge amount, but everyone knew that he was the fastest guy in Oakland.

So, he ran and ran and ran and right before right as he caught the racer, as he got near the grandstand which is a very appropriate word for what he did, "grandstanding" he ran past the, uh, the Fremont track star that was Castlemont guy, Karl Valrey ran past him, flipped around, turned up his sunglasses, waved "goodbye" at the guy, flipped back around, and then sped off, like the Road Runner, and won by even more than they had predicted.

So, it was an amazing moment.

And just watching the crowd, for the next five minutes, slap... slap low fives.

Back then, high fives hadn't been invented yet.

It was a moment, and... and I just walked home like, "What did I just see?"

I just saw something I had never seen before.

Something very, very... And I stored it away.

But, a year later, I decided to go to Castlemont High School.

And that was one reason.

So, for me, that was a moment, and I thought, "Wow.

Later in life, what would happen if he did that in a professional track meet, or anything else?"

And I know the response.

High School, it's appropriate, but you can't do that in the pro-level.

But that... that showed me that there was a way of expressing oneself that was very different, and that was, like, "My goodness!"

So, I began to observe that in sport, and, uh, and try to mimic some of those things in my own life, on occasion.

Without the talent.

Scott: And we're going to have to leave it there.

Fascinating.

Absolutely fascinating.

Thank you.

Vernon: Thank you, Scott.

I really appreciate this interview, and this chance to talk about this important work.

Scott: All right.

And that's our show.

Thanks to our guest, and thanks to you for watching Studio Sacramento.

I'm Scott Syphax.

See you next time right here on KVIE.

♪♪ ♪♪ Scott Syphax: All episodes of Studio Sacramento, along with other KVIE programs, are available to watch online at kvie.org/video.