♪♪ Scott: Almost a year has passed since the death of George Floyd at the hands of Minneapolis police.

MLK365 Executive Director Sam Starks, UC Davis Professor Bruce Haynes, and former Black Lives Matter Sacramento lead Sonia Lewis join us to discuss the aftermath of the protests that riveted the world.

Professor Haynes, almost a year later how do you view the consequences of last year'’s national and international protest highlighting the issues of African Americans that were sparked by George Floyd's death?

Bruce: Well, I think we're still, uh, in transition.

We're still, uh, responding to, um, so many things that have taken place since that time in... including the, uh, the protest in D.C. in January.

And so, I think, um, we're... we're at an interesting time politically, we're waiting to see you know, what the Biden administration's going to be doing, um, how will the Justice Department reach out, uh, and deal with some of the policing issues.

So, I think there's a lot of, uh, unknown still.

Scott: Okay.

Sonia, from your perspective, what's different about the world today almost a year later after the uprisings were- uh, first took place?

Sonia: You know, it's, uh, it's something that we have to wrap our heads around in regards to, um, the amount of allyship that is out there.

Um, people who are more present, um, recognize that the connection and intersections of struggle, um, bring us together and see- I think that there was a, um, a blinders that were removed and that folks see, um, more readily the... the inequity in... in policy and procedure, um, when it comes to Black lives.

And so, I think that that's very different in this moment.

I would also say that for, um, for Black folks in general, collectively, while it's not a feeling of, "“I told you so"” and "“I've been telling you.

"” It's, uh, it's a moment of almost like I can step back and, um, give the earnest to or put the responsibility on others to do their homework in a more fashionable way, right.

Um, it's still always going to be my job to speak up.

Um, and I would encourage all those who identify with the Black community to speak up.

But I think that the responsibility, when we talk about hatred, when we talk about racism, it is going to be the responsibility of those, um, who have closer proximities to whiteness to fix it.

It'’s... it'’s... it can no longer be our responsibility to be the only one screaming and shouting about racism and Black lives.

Scott: Y- you know, Sam, Sonia raises a... a really interesting point about who's got responsibility to fix this.

And... and I'm curious, from your perspective and the work that you've done over the decades with MLK365, what has the last year revealed about the state of not only racial understanding of the issues that African Americans and others have faced, but the willingness of people to step up and not just stand on the sidelines, uh, in a... in a sense of saying, "“Well, I'm with you, but I'm with you over here.

"” Sam: Hmm.

Very powerful stuff, uh, from, uh, Bruce and Sonia.

Um, we have had moments before.

Emmett Till was a moment.

Um, the 1963 March on Washington was a moment, it was a clarion call.

It, um, the dogs that were being, uh, put sic on the Selma, uh, children, firehoses being sprayed on them was a moment.

We all can remember watching the 6 o'clock news and saying- or those of us of a certain age can remember seeing on television, the president, um, and family, um, and the world really, um, watching those young children being sprayed with, um, a firehose.

And...

I would even say, and my role model, in some sense, it's Douglas who, when the night when Lincoln in his ninth- 1863, Jan. 1, uh, Emancipation Proclamation, and then subsequently opening the possibility for people to- Black people to fight.

He said, this is the time, and we don't deserve a freedom that we're not willing to put our own skin in.

And I think both has to be true.

I think there is nothing more powerful than an opportunity, as Victor Hugo would say, it is time has come.

And this is that moment, I believe, for this generation that we have to really yes, Black folks, but yes, the world.

But we have to articulate it in a way that we have to push it there's to some degree that burden is put on us, but at the same time, the technology has created, uh, a scenario and we saw it with George Floyd, that the world... that the world participated.

And Ms. Sonia is right.

It is now time for white folks to really - white folks of conscious, let me just say that because Dr. King would say that there are some white folks who want to see the Negro free as the Negro wants to be free.

So, we understand that there is a, there's a level of consciousness and now's not the time for quiet quietness.

Now is the time to put your values, what you talk in quiet, put that into action.

And, um, and I think this is that moment.

This is that movement.

So... Scott: Well, uh, Sonia, I want to come back to you based on what Sam said, because, um, in terms of who has to step up, uh, Black folks and others have been stepping up for a very long time, and you're speaking to the fact that, uh, people closer to whiteness, uh, have to step up and own this.

But then at the same time, I hear a lot from... from, uh, particularly Black activists that, "“Hey, you know what, it's not my job to educate you.

I'm sick of educating any people, you know, you go out and figure it out by yourself.

"” So, um, how do you have, um, impactful allyship and at the same time, reconcile that a lot of Black people are tired in their own words of being on the side of interpreting and educating white society?

Sonia: Absolutely.

So, if we think about the history of the Civil Rights Movement, the pickup of the Black Power Movement, and then today's current, uh, movement of Black Lives Matter.

And when we think about those movements in and of themselves, we know that there have been allies that are extremely conscious that have stood right beside.

I mean go back to the NAACP.

It was not necessarily an organization that was founded by, but for right, um, Black folks.

And so, when I think about the earnest and the responsibility, I am thinking about those folks who have been in the trenches with us, have walked right alongside of us.

Now you know, right.

So, there's a core group, and I don't call them allies because oftentimes allies get to go home to the comforts of their home.

They throw up a few hashtags, they throw a few dollars at a cause, but there's not a conscious responsibility or an initiative to do this work and stand up for when someone else isn't asking them.

So, I'm asking for, and I think that there's a responsibility of folks to step up their game.

You are now an accomplice in this work.

You are a comrade in this work.

You are an abolitionist in this work because you know that there are some systems that are inherently, systemically, in- intentionally, um, structurally, institutionally racist.

And so, it's your job because of your proximities to whiteness- and I would say that some folks that fall into that model minority category, and even some of us Black folks who have closer proximities, um, to whiteness.

I recognize with my- what mine are, right.

I am a, even though I fall into the category of a demographic that is in my opinion, still the most disenfranchised group as a Black woman in this country, I still hold, you know, educational degrees.

I've been employed for the majority of my life.

I...

I am married for over 20 years.

My husband is employed.

So, there are some proximities to whiteness where I can get endorsed, where people who are in neighborhoods all across this country cannot get into.

And so, when we have this conversation about responsibility, first, I always want to say, um, to white folks in particular, this isn't about shame and blame.

Racism is here and while we have to recognize that it's here, it's always been here, there are some benefits that come with your proximity to whiteness, with... with the structure of whiteness, with the white normative, with white supremacy, with white fragility, with white privilege, right?

And so, if we're going to be responsible in breaking down all of those structures and the powers that come from it, um, we have to be extremely conscious about where the labor is.

And yes, it'’s... it's almost like a... a dual, um, response that yes, Black folks and the most marginalized folks need to be centered and lifted in those moments.

We're talking about agency, but we're also talking about when it comes to, um, the labor and the, and the... and the... the learning of what the struggle is.

Come to the table with some knowledge is what my request would be.

Bruce: Scott, can I piggyback off of this?

Because I think one of the things we're talking about is justice.

And when we're talking about justice, or as... as Sonia is just saying, we're talking about racial justice, but we're also talking about the relationship between racial justice and economic justice.

And... and, um, I think we have to constantly remind ourselves that when we're talking about a coalition we're also talking about a class-based coalition, not just a coalition of racial others, but... but a coalition of the economically disenfranchised.

And those who are economically disenfranchised, some of us are... are economically disenfranchised precisely because of the color of our skin.

But the understanding of the relationship between these two things, um, are very important.

Scott: Professor Haynes, uh...

I...

I want to stay...

I wanna stay, uh, on the issue of enfranchisement and specifically did the uprisings of the last year and the BLM movement have any impact, from your perspective as a sociologist, on the outcome of the national elections?

Bruce: Oh, most definitely.

Most definitely.

Uh, I think we saw a... a generation galvanized as... as Sonia indicated.

We saw, um... and we sort of transcend generation.

I saw, uh, friends of mine in their seventies, who... who, um, were not inclined to go to protests suddenly head to... to Sacramento in support of Black lives because they suddenly understood even in the context of... of this pandemic, that they had to put their lives on the line to... to make the point about the value of our lives.

Scott: And... and Sonia, you know, you, uh, have been directly involved in the BLM movement, both in Sacramento, but also nationally.

Uh, when- how is it that... that you and your colleagues, um, assess the impact of last year on the trajectory of... of the nation's elections, but also on the conversation?

Sonia: Absolutely.

I think that we can't separate the two, that there are social movements that are impacted by politics and there are politics that are impacted by social movements.

They go hand in hand.

Um, you know, when I'm thinking about justice, I'm also thinking about joy and so, Black joy is revolutionary, right?

To see Black folks, um, in a state of being successful and thriving, not just a matter of survival, right?

Um, all of those things are political.

I did, with my organization, I did a Kwanzaa celebration and when I posted it on Facebook, this is how political Black joy is.

The word, the concept of Kwanzaa is a political- and I...

I thought it was, you know... you know, a celebration of Black culture.

You know, that's what I know of Kwanzaa.

But when you put it in a search engine and when you put it on social media, it has some red flags that... that come with it.

And so, that tells me that just being Black and living the Black experience is extremely political.

And so, we cannot ever take away that aspect of who we are as p- p- as people.

The history for 400 years has been around the enslavement, the control, the, um, the sheer, um, trajectory and... and... and hindering of Black success.

And so that's all intentional.

Um, and if we don't think that it has anything to do with politics, shame on us.

We... we had- still have our blinders on.

Um, you know, when we're talking about a national perspective and, um, January 6 and to be particular I, you know, as a person who has been on the frontline of organizing, I can't tell you the visceral, you know, reaction I had to seeing individuals who don't look like me, have the freedom and liberty to go into the State Capitol and not have, um, tear gas shot at them, not have rubber bullets shot at them, not have several hundred arrests.

I mean, go back to the night, um, in the Fab 40s right here in Sacramento, and you had 80... 87 of us who were arrested, right.

Scott: Including a journalist, I believe.

Sonia: Including journalists, including clergy persons.

Scott: Dale Kasler of The Sacramento Bee.

Sonia: And we were legitimately dispersing to our vehicles, right.

And so, if the response we had since then, since George Floyd, we've had the national guard be right here in our city.

Um, I know what the smell of tear gas is.

I know what the sound of rubber bullets flying past my head feels like.

And so, um, it's almost a slap in the face to individuals who have been on the ground fighting for Black lives when other folks are fighting for, um, a seemingly patriotic or, um, a flag or a person who lost a political race.

And so that, that opposing reaction or lack of reaction, um, is extremely political in and of itself as well, right.

We have to connect the dots to how all of these systems that we rely on.

We have to rely on the housing market.

We have to rely on employment to... to pay our bills.

We have to rely on the education system to educate our children.

It's illegal for them not to be in some school setting.

We have to rely to a high degree on the medical infrastructure.

And we rely on the voting, um, apparatus as agency to our voice of what- who we want as elected officials.

And so, if any of those five systems are compromised, then the politicalness of that is that I don't have a voice and that I am not welcome to, um, participate in the process of democracy.

Scott: Sam, I...

I want to, um, build on what... what Sonia was just discussing about, uh, what happened at the State Capitol last year.

When you think about the events of the past month at the U. S. Capitol, um, with, uh, protesters taking over the U. S. Capitol, um, if you substituted out the people who were involved in the George Floyd protests with the folks that were marching on the Capitol, if they- if those folks from the George Floyd protest had been at the U.S. Capitol, how would the response have been different?

Sam: I mean, is that a question?

I mean, you know, uh, this is not me being flip on your question, but, you know, is that a question?

The truth of the matter is there would have been bloodshed and, um, and I've had conversations-— Scott: And what does that indicate to you?

What does that reveal to America about itself?

Sam: Well, it... it, to me, there's a number of different things.

Um, you have a majority of people in America and... and it's really traceable, my white brothers and sisters.

And... and you have, you know, to the professor's point, an economic issue, one that they are dealing with, like we're dealing with.

An economic issue, whether you're talking about one to 10%, that is economically doing okay, and then you have a great majority that by and large the war has funded their existence, government grants has funded their existence.

Um, land grants, GI Bills, um, uh, social welfare, uh, SSDI, Social Security over the years has funded this existence of this large class that has been the beneficiary of a white privilege, of a white skin that has to some degree lost some of its value.

And that feeling of being, uh, that my white skin is not, um, uh, generationally able to be passed down, that's not- doesn't carry the value that it used to carry.

And by your presence, by your protest, you are diminishing that heritage that I have, and America understands this.

There's a wonderful book called "“White Trash"” by a professor that talks about that majority and my, you know, she is a white professor who talks about that majority that this government has basically subsidized from the very beginning of America.

And we have to come to grips with them because they're not going to be so quick to understand a privilege that they don't see themselves having.

The privilege of their skin, they may say, is a heritage and they marched on that Capitol as if it was their Capitol, as if it was their home, as if they were a redeeming, taking back, if you will, making America great again, if you please, and that's not the first time we heard that.

And the Republican party, as we know it today, I always say to myself, we made peace with the Confederates too quickly.

We jumped into bed with them too quickly.

We allow the Daughters of the Confederacy to... to win the peace too quickly.

And we wanted peace.

We didn't want justice.

We wanted peace.

And that has been our sin since the beginning of America.

We wanted peace with the British, with our Southern brethren, and at the sacrifice on the chopping block or the cell block was the Black person.

Move on down, move on down.

We ended in seven years after the Civil War and we traded Black- we traded our justice and Black lives for peace with our Southern brethren.

And we've never come to grips, we've never understood, we've- that has been- that party, that Confederacy has unrepentantly been a part of the American experience.

They have lived in that American experience, which is to say I would rather America burn than me lose my privilege.

I would rather America burn.

We saw that... we saw that, and we made peace with them.

And we had President Wilson, we had President, uh, Roosevelt and we... and we had even President Reagan when he announced his presidency, where he was, who he was talking to.

We had Willie Horton.

That narrative has always been a part of our darker side of our American story.

And we're saying it's time for that to change.

Bruce: Sam... Sam, can I... can I-— Sam: Yes, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

Bruce: So, I want to piggyback on something you said, because I think one of the things that... that you capture is... is the way in which, um, whiteness has propped up the American white working class historically.

And this is very true, whether we're talking about the GI Bill, or, uh, or, um, the creation of the suburbs.

But one of the things that we're dealing with now is a, um, a disenfranchisement of the white working class as well.

Sam: Yes.

Bruce: If we just look at stagnant wages since the 1970s.

Sam: Yes.

Yes.

Bruce: And if you look at the... the frustrations expressed by the people who marched on Washington- Sam: Yes.

Bruce: Uh, in January.

Um, they feel their America's gone because in fact, uh, they have been economically stagnant as well.

Um, they had economic downturn during the Great Recession as well and had difficulty coming back.

And now what's been offered to them by the Republican is this false hope of... of a re-restoration of whiteness.

Meanwhile, the very policies of that GOP was stripping wealth from that white working class over the past four years.

Sam: Send them overseas.

Bruce: ... between the realities of what they believe about who's taking their wealth, it's the minorities and the immigrants, and who's really taking their wealth, riches, wealthy.

This... this disconnect is what has been driving this racial wedge in America.

Sam: Scott, if I can say-— Scott: Professor, professor, I...

I want to take that and Sonia, you started in your earlier comments talking about the term intersectionality.

I may have stated it wrong, but given this disenfranchisement of people, and we're talking about the historic disenfranchisement of people of color.

We haven't even gotten into women's disenfranchisement, but all of these others.

And then we talk about the... the... the diminishment of the white working class, where... where does this term intersectionality come into play that... that gives form and direction for what should come next?

Sonia: You know, I think the perfect example in history is Martin Luther King.

Before he died, you know, he was organizing the poor people's campaign and he was galvanizing people around this concept that it's not about Black against white, it's about, you know, the haves and the have-nots.

And the have-nots are being disenfranchised more, um, uh, across the board, um, and... and that there are some commonalities and linkages that we can make with one another.

And so, regardless if we'’re Black, if we're white, if we're Indigenous, or Brown, um, if we are, of, you know, uh... uh, new immigrant into this country, um, there is some connection to where we are socially and economically in this country.

And that lived experience needs to be, um, talked about more.

And so, we are at a crossroads right here right now when we think about, you know, we've been in this pandemic for almost a year now, with respects to COVID, I would offer that we are at a crossroads of two pandemics, one that has been so lasting for more than 400 years.

And now that the pandemic of COVID has come and like, ripped off that ugly band-aid that is hiding all the cankerous, you know, yuckiness that's underneath that, that wound that just won't heal.

And that now we have an opportunity or at least I hope we take advantage of the opportunity to heal.

And taking advantages are going to require folks who understand this history, who understand the pain of what the struggle is.

Um, you know, I often say to myself, you know, what is the target on- what was the target on the back of a MLK and, a Martin Luther King- I'm sorry, MLK and a Malcolm X and, a Marcus Garvey and... and a Fannie Lou Hamer and, uh, even a Shirley Chisholm, right?

People who have put themselves on the line to, uh, make sure that there was equity across the board.

And lifting up- Scott: And, uh, unfortunately, unfortunately, Sonia, we're going to have to leave this most stimulating conversation here because we're out of time.

Sonia: Okay.

Scott: But, uh, it...it shows that there's more to come back to.

Sonia: Absolutely.

Scott: And that's our show, thanks to our guests.

And thanks to you for watching Studio Sacramento.

I'm Scott Syphax.

See you next time right here on KVIE.

♪♪ ♪♪ Scott Syphax: All episodes of Studio Sacramento, along with other KVIE programs, are available to watch online at kvie.org/video.