JOHN: THE EPA HAS REPORTEDLY DRAFTED A PLAN TO ELIMINATE ALL LIMITS ON GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS FROM POWER PLANTS.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO DOCUMENTS RECENTLY OBTAINED BY THE NEW YORK TIMES.

THE POWER INDUSTRY IS ONE OF THE TOP SOURCES OF U.S. GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS, WHICH SCIENTISTS HAVE SAID FOR DECADES HELP DRIVE CLIMATE CHANGE.

NOW WITH THE RISE OF A.I.

TECHNOLOGY, DEMAND ON POWER PLANTS IS INCREASING, IN LARGE PART DUE TO A.I.

'S RELIANCE ON DATA CENTERS.

ALI ROGIN SPOKE WITH KENZA BRYAN, CLIMATE REPORTER FOR THE FINANCIAL TIMES.

ALI: THANKS FOR JOINING US.

HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT OF THESE DATA CENTERS THAT ARE AT THE HEART OF AI?

KENZA: THEIR ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT IS HUGE AND IT'S GROWING.

AI DATA CENTERS ARE MASSIVELY CONTRIBUTING TO THE CONTINUED RISE IN POWER DEMAND, WHICH ITSELF CONTRIBUTES TO THE CONTINUED RISE IN GLOBAL EMISSIONS.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, IT'S GROWING FASTER THAN GRID CAPACITIES.

AND EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY, IT'S GROWING FASTER THAN RENEWABLE ENERGY GROWTH.

WHICH MEANS THAT EVEN AS DATA CENTER ENERGY USE GROWS, CLEAN ENERGY FROM WIND, SOLAR, NUCLEAR PERHAPS IS LAGGING BEHIND.

ALI: AND WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED ABOUT THE PUBLIC HEALTH IMPLICATIONS OF THE CAPACITY THAT'S NEEDED TO POWER THESE AI SYSTEMS?

KENZA: SOME OF THE PUBLIC HEALTH IMPLICATIONS ARE VERY LOCAL.

BUT REALLY, THE EFFECTS ARE MORE GLOBAL THAN LOCAL.

SO, PUSHING UP DEMAND FOR FOSSIL FUELS MEANS MORE CO2 IS EMITTED, WHICH HELPS GLOBAL TEMPERATURES CREEP UP, WHICH CAN HAVE LOCAL EFFECTS THROUGH EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS, FOR EXAMPLE.

ALI: WHAT SORT OF REGULATORY ENVIRONMENT IS THERE FOR THESE FACILITIES?

KENZA: FOR THE MOMENT, THERE'S VERY LITTLE REGULATORY SCRUTINY OF DATA CENTER ENERGY USE.

AND ONE OF THE ONLY GOVERNMENTS IN THE WORLD THAT HAS STARTED TO TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY IS IRELAND AND ITS OWN ENERGY REGULATORS, BECAUSE THEY REALIZE THAT SOME OF THE BIG TECH COMPANIES THAT OPERATE IN IRELAND, INCLUDING SOME OF THE BIG U.S.

ONES LIKE AMAZON, ARE STARTING TO PUT IMMENSE CONSTRAINTS ON ITS GRID, WHICH MEANS IT'S DIFFICULT FOR LOCAL INDUSTRY, FOR LOCAL HOUSES TO GET THE POWER THEY NEED.

SO THEY HAVE PROPOSED THAT WHEN A NEW DATA CENTER IS BUILT, IT BRINGS AS MUCH ADDITIONAL CAPACITY TO THE GRID AS IT TAKES AWAY.

BUT UNTIL THOSE GRID CAPACITY CONSTRAINTS START TO BE FELT MORE CONCRETELY IN THE U.S., FOR EXAMPLE, I THINK IT'S UNLIKELY WE'RE GOING TO SEE SPECIFIC REGULATIONS SAYING DATA CENTERS HAVE TO HAVE TO BRING MORE ENERGY TO THE GRID OR HAVE TO BRING MORE CLEAN ENERGY TO THE GRID.

PARTICULARLY GIVEN THAT TRUMP WANTS TO MAKE THE U.S. AN AI SUPERPOWER.

IT WOULDN'T MAKE SENSE AT THE MOMENT TO CONSTRAIN THAT GROWTH.

ALI: AND IN THE MIDST OF THAT GROWTH, THESE COMPANIES THAT HAVE THESE AI PRODUCTS AND SERVICES, THEY ARE ACKNOWLEDGING THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT, IT SEEMS, AND THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

WHAT ARE THEY TELLING YOU ABOUT THE STEPS THAT THEY'RE TAKING TO MITIGATE ALL OF THE IMPACTS THEY'RE HAVING?

KENZA: COMPANIES LIKE AMAZON, META, ALPHABET, GOOGLE'S PARENT COMPANY, THEY ALL CLAIM ACCURATELY TO BE SOME OF THE WORLD'S LARGEST BUYERS OF CLEAN ENERGY NOW, SO THEY MAKE HUGE INVESTMENTS IN WIND, SOLAR POWER, INCREASINGLY NUCLEAR ENERGY.

THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THOSE INVESTMENTS AREN'T ALWAYS VERY LOCAL.

SO THEY MIGHT BE INVESTING IN SOLAR ENERGY IN TEXAS WHILE THEY'RE CONSUMING THAT ENERGY SOMEWHERE ELSE IN A DIFFERENT U.S. STATE.

AND CRITICS OF THESE BIG TECH COMPANIES WOULD SAY THAT THEIR PROMISES DON'T ALWAYS MATCH UP WITH THE PROBLEMS THAT LOCAL GRIDS FACE AND LOCAL PEOPLE FACE.

ALI: AND WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED ABOUT THE DEBATE OVER THE MERITS OF INCREASING USE OF AI IN EVERYDAY LIFE?

AGAINST THE DRAWBACKS THAT WE'VE JUST DISCUSSED IN TERMS OF THE IMPACT ON THE ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC HEALTH?

KENZA: THE AI BOOM HAS TAKEN OFF AT A AWKWARD TIME FOR THE FIGHT AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE, BECAUSE GLOBAL TEMPERATURES ARE ALREADY RISING MUCH FASTER THAN SCIENTISTS EXPECTED.

AND NOW AI AND THE INTERNATIONAL ENERGY AGENCY HAS SAID IS CONTRIBUTING TO A MASSIVE INCREASE IN POWER DEMAND, WHICH ITSELF IS CONTRIBUTING TO AN INCREASE IN EMISSIONS.

BECAUSE THE PROBLEM IS, WE HAVEN'T DECARBONIZED OUR GRIDS YET.

THEY'RE STILL HUGELY RELIANT ON FOSSIL FUELS.

THEY NEED ENERGY EVEN WHEN THE WIND ISN'T BLOWING AND THE SUN ISN'T SHINING, WHICH MEANS THAT BUT UNTIL THOSE GRID CAPACITY CONSTRAINTS START TO BE FELT - - WHICH MEANS THAT EVEN MORE RELIANCE ON FOSSIL FUELS AND THE