♪♪ Scott: What is the future of the Civil Rights Movement in the 21st century?

Three experts join us to have a conversation about the future of the movement and where progress stands today.

Professor Haynes how does the Civil Rights Movement today describe itself when there are so many groups and interests beyond African Americans that are claiming civil rights issues as their own?

Bruce: Well, I think today we have to remind ourselves that the Civil Rights Movement was always a coalition-based movement.

Um, although the focus was on segregation at the time, um, students were involved, uh, Jews were involved, labor was involved, the church was involved.

And so today you might say we have a... a similar set of issues facing us but with, uh, new groups who are part of the struggle.

Scott: Hmm.

So-— Sonia, when I... when I hear that from Professor Haynes, it... it kind of butts up against this... this notion that, um, people need to really organize amongst themselves and have their safe space to advocate and organize for themselves.

How... how is it that activists are figuring out how to, um, essentially organize with their own communities, but also work on more broad-based issues together?

Sonia: I think the perfect example is Dr. King - before he was assassinated his-— the Poor People's Campaign.

I mean, I think that that gave us a blueprint of what intersectionality could possibly look like and what collaboration work in activist spaces can look like.

I think that anytime that there is an issue that is pressing, um, that we have to... have to center the voices of those who are most marginalized in those, um, circumstances.

But it is always important to have allies in the mix, people who are going to lift and... and share and show up and, um, provide support for whatever that in-— incident might be.

Um, you know, when I think about, um, the LBGTQ+ community and the... the uprise, um, through the 90s and early 2,000s, um, in regards to just their rights.

It was a-— they took the blueprint from the Civil Rights Movement.

When you think about the suffrage movement and... and by the way, the suff-—suffragists were tad bit racist, and so when we have these debates about where do Black women fit into the women's movement and is fem-—feminism a thing versus womanism?

You know, we have to really take a look at who's being excluded in these moments in time.

And so, while exclusion naturally happens, I think that people from the outside looking in want to naturally help.

And, um, while we sometimes experience willful ignorance, um, the intent to be helpful, I think is very much there.

There are lots of issues that are going on around our nations, where we can lend, um, and... and come together in collaborative work.

There's climate change and, um, environmental justice which are very much tied into, um, racist policies.

There is, um, the-— I said the Poor People's Campaign.

There is the LBGTQ, there are... are Brown and... and... and... and indigenous folks who are struggling with challenges, and there are incarcerated folks that are struggling.

So, there are so many layers to what we're fighting for and they intersect-— the struggle is the same, right?

Scott: Well, the struggle... the struggle may be the same, but Sam, I-— I'm curious as to whether or not all of this intersectionality, um, dilutes the... the focus off of the historic Civil Rights Movement and the African American community who there... there has been an observation over the years that, um, the African American Civil Rights Movement tends to open the doors-— Sonia: Yeah.

Scott: But then people step through it and they are the last to reap the benefits.

Sam: If I can use an appropriate analogy-— Blacks have been dealing since, um, we got into to these shores, since the, um, individuals conceptualized this notion of America, have been dealing with a COVID-19.

Sonia: Absolutely.

Sam: And we have been trying to navigate that COVID-19.

When we're navigating COVID-19 people, other folks, other communities are getting the flu.

They're getting a cold, they're... they're developing a cough.

But make no mistake, the very structure, the very structure of America has so endowed its African American citizens with the equivalent of a COVID-19.

And so, while some people develop a cold, a flu, we are dying.

We are dying in... in, uh, records that people just don't see.

We have normalized-— our... our death, Black death has been so normalized because of structural problems.

And it-— we... we... we now on records, we see, uh, you know, the actuaries, when you do insurance, they anticipate that Blacks will die 10 years before whites.

And yet the question of why is never asked.

The question of why is not of concern.

Uh, if we just spatially distanced, if we just wore masks.

Well, it's the same question.

Now we are at a moment in which we are looking at structural change and hopefully we will get-— we will... we will peer pass the, uh, proverbial seven to eight years of, um, of sympathy... of Black sympathy.

It's like, um, and excuse me for going on here.

It's like holding your nose through Black History Month.

It's like the seven years after slavery ends and... and we just can't wait to get back together the blue and the gray and shake hands and... and let the... the Black problem solve itself.

So-— Scott: I...

I want to come back to that issue.

Sam: Certainly.

Scott: Um, but it raises another point, Professor Haynes, in that it sounds like from what Sam and Sonia have said, the issues of the moment today in many ways, mirror those that were in place 60 years ago.

And so, it... it raises the question, um, what's so different between, uh, 1961 and 2021?

Bruce: Unfortunately, you... you hit a... a real salient point.

Maybe not... not too much is different between these two time periods.

Um, you know, the 1960s saw, um, a period of, uh... uh, wealth accumulation in American society, and at the same time, uh, we saw the entrenchments of poverty in our cities.

Uh, we're seeing similar, uh... uh, trajectories taking place right now with the growth in the wealth gap and... and the way in which that has exacerbated um... uh... the entrenchment of... of Black poverty, because you know, Black poverty is tied to segregation.

And I want to touch on something Sonia said before, which was about Dr. King.

Uh, one of my favorite phrases from Dr. King was that segregation, he said, "Segregation is a cancer in the body politic that must be removed before our democratic health can be realized."

Sonia: Absolutely.

Bruce: I have believed in that my entire career.

And I believe that segregation is so deeply tied to economic inequality, and health inequality, and... and the fallout of COVID, that until we are really ready to reconcile the spatial, uh... uh, compartmentalization of our society, both in terms of race, but also in terms of class, we will continue to have, uh, a justice issue.

Scott: What's interesting about that, Sonia though, is that, um, people of different perspectives say, you know, you discussed the consistency of these issues and how long standing they are.

But that completely ignores, um, you know, uh, evidence of progress in many different things.

You know, things like the number of African American women with 4-year degrees, um, is at its highest level ever.

Um, you have the number of Black billionaires has never been as high.

Uh, we, uh, saw the, uh, 2-time election of the first Black president.

All of these things, um, are... are, um, pieces of what those who would say are evidence of progress and that there's a frustration, at least amongst some who say, you know, all the, uh, Black community ever talks about is how bad things are and refuses to acknowledge, uh, all of the success that it has had.

How do you respond to them?

Sonia: Oh, I think that that's a very layered and loaded question in the sense that right after emancipation, you had the spring up of, um, Black Wall Streets all over this country and that was immediately snatched within a 10-year period, right?

10-to-15-year period.

Um, you had elected officials, Black elected officials at high numbers, higher than we have today, um, in the senate coming out of states in the South, like Alabama and Mississippi, we don't have that today.

So, when we talk about progress, it's like you... you may take a step forward, but there's always the 10 steps backwards.

And... and can I just, as the only woman, Black woman on, um, this panel, that Black women have been brilliant from the beginning of time and it's no wonder that we have the highest degrees, it's no wonder that we vote in the highest numbers.

Um, we have saved America from itself on multiple occasions, not just in this decade, not just in this century, but since the beginning of time.

And that goes back to Black women feeding white babies on their breasts.

So, there's a humanity level that comes with being Black in America, because I oftentimes hear angry activists say, you know, "If we were like you, we would have burnt this place to the ground."

And so, what comes to mind for me when we talk about progress is that we have to equate it to things like what are-— what is the racial capital look like?

Right?

How many folks are suffering at the hands of poverty and lack of resources when you cross the street or the railroad tracks because of redlining or whatever segregation is taking place in any city across this country.

When you see that the resources are starkly different.

When you see that the tax base in a community, um, like Greenhaven is so much different than that of a community like Meadowview.

So, we have to really and truly evaluate w-— and... and follow the dollar, because we're talking about the same city funds, the same county funds, the same state funds, and we see the disparities.

Scott: Yeah-— Bruce: Scott... I-— I-— Scott, I'd like to jump in just to mention something I think is pretty important to this conversation.

A recent Harvard study was done that demonstrated that even the wealthy Black Americans are unable to pass their wealth down-— Sonia: Absolutely.

Bruce: To their children.

And so... even when wealth is made, the systemic layers of things like segregation, uh, things like, um, uh, employment discrimination still end up denying the ability of Black Americans to accumulate wealth.

Scott: Well, I...

I want to play with this a little bit.

Sam, uh, you are known nationally as a person who has-— who is very steeped in genealogy in particularly in looking at the genealogy of African Americans.

And when you look at... at genealogy and look at the history of our people, uh, it kind of plays into the sentiment that, um, all... all of the complaints about African American's conditions today, but if you study genealogy and the heroic struggles that those who came before had to go through, um, is there a lack of recognition of that circumstances are different today than they were say, uh, during the Jim Crow era?

Sam: Well, I think genealogically, when you look at the study of family, and... and how, um, at least the documentation of us as people from 1870 census moving forward, uh, to each census, you... you... you... you see a kind of forward movement.

But it really is-— and here's the... here's the kind of funny interplay.

It's... it's almost like-— and this is kind of Bruce's argument, uh, of class a little bit where you see, uh, a kind of almost Bacon's Rebellion and you... you see a kind of, uh, Black life and the foil of Black life, oftentimes is one of that white middle class to lower economic class.

It's almost like there's, uh... uh, kind of pitting of our... our quality of life historically is really not one of that 1%, you know, that 1 or 2% it's... it's like, we're not competing in that space.

It's always, you know, the balance of that massive white middle to lower middle class.

And it's almost as if, um, anything that we-— you know, if you destabilize that majority, if you destabilize on a class basis, that white majority, um, then the American experiment is all but gone.

And I... and I don't-— I...

I'm not trying to over, uh, state the point, but we saw January 6 where that segment said, we want to take back our country.

And I mentioned Bacon because we still haven't dealt with Bacon's Rebellion.

We still haven't.

Fundamentally, it's always been this balance and you see it on every census.

You see it-— Scott: Re-— remind us very briefly... Sam: Where you have kind of-— Scott: What'’s Bacon's Rebellion.

Sam: And it's... it's a kind of modern in the most recent era you see, uh, a Fred Hampton.

All power to the people, all power to the Black people, all power to the white people, all power to the-— you know, where he was coalescing.

And maybe the doctor can talk a little bit more, but there was this kind of coalition, this coalition building around outside of, um... um, it... it was a coalition that really didn't pit, necessarily, white people against Black people-— Scott: You-— you're talking about, uh, when you talk about Fred Hampton, there was a recent movie released called, uh, "“Judas and the Messiah"” where Fred Hampton, who was the leader of the Black Panther Party in Chicago, had reached across to poor whites and, uh, Latinos and built a... a pretty, uh, sizable and impressive coalition in Chicago to try and address what were class-based issues and really work to find, uh, to use that term again, the intersectionality of, um, the interests of people, regardless of background and-— Sam: That's what made him dangerous.

Scott: And... and-— well let me ask Sonia this, Sonia is that, um, part of the reason that the current movement, uh, that has been embodied by Black Lives Matter and others has caused so much angst, uh, throughout the national news media?

Sonia: Absolutely.

And I think that it is-— I think Sam is hitting on a very important piece when we speak of the Bac-— uh, Bacon's Rebellion and when we speak of Fred Hampton, when you speak of the Poor People's Campaign.

These are very clear examples of intersectionality and seeing the common-— common threads of struggle, right?

But when we talk about this movement that we are currently in, I think that it is extremely indicative to recognize that the threat has always been on Black bodies, regardless of who the perpetrator is.

So, I'll give you an example, recently here in Sacramento, um, the Mayor's house was targeted because of the... the homeless issue that we are suffering through and, um, there was supposedly property damage.

And our local media irresponsibly, in my, opinion said that this was the hand-— at the hands of Black Lives Matter, just because BLM is spray painted or there's uh... uh, signature mark of some sort left behind at a demonstration.

That is... that is a general movement note to those who are in positions of power that Black Lives in these situations like unhousedness get the-— are the worst of the worst of situations.

And so, it is irresponsible for media then to turn around and place the blame on Black leadership.

And so, I can remember getting calls a couple of weeks ago and saying, "Hey Sonia, what is your take on, you know, the media saying that Black Lives Matter is responsible for this?"

Well, you know, for over 400 years, we've been blamed for any kind of insurrection in this country, and there's not been the same type of reaction-— we saw it on January 6-— there's not been the same kind of reaction when other folks who are not Black do the very same thing and worse.

Bruce: Uh, Scott, I'd...

I'd love to jump in here a second.

Um, you know, what you're talking about is a slave rebellion-— Sonia: Absolutely.

Bruce: When we talked about Bacon's Rebellion.

And it's a really important, uh... uh, moment in history that Sam has really identified because not only was this, uh, indentured servants uniting with Black slaves to, uh, rise up against their oppressors.

Um, but the result of that rebellion, uh, cast Blacks, uh, who were, um-— will show the different-— differential treatment between Blacks and whites.

And so, whites were cast into indentured servitude for extended amounts of time, um, where Blacks were lynched for the rebellion.

And this is a great example of this sort of divide and conquer strategy of if you can convince poor whites that they have some interests over their whiteness that gives them something over Blacks, then you can use that as a strategy to prevent them from unifying across those class boundaries.

And... and this is something that we see taking place with the nativism that the Trump administration was using, the... the calls to, um, you know, the... the hordes are coming to your su-— suburb near you soon.

Uh, there was constant appeal to a long-standing narrative of... of fear.

Scott: So, I...

I want to turn this conversation because we've talked a lot about what is, but let, let's talk a little bit about what could be and solutions.

Right now, there appears to be a window where these discussions are taking place that... that many would say, have not taken place for years or even decades.

What is it that everyone should be pushing toward in terms of looking towards solutions to improve the American conditions, not just for African Americans, but for all people?

And, uh, Sonia, um, I'd like you to start on that.

Sonia: I think that we have to get to a place-— and I think that this window of opportunity that Sam alluded to before, is extremely important.

Like, um, the opportunity will elude us if we don't take advantage of it.

And so, the... the things that need to be taking place are conversations, hard conversations, challenging conversations, allowing for silence if it happens, to allow for growth, to, um, foster-— Um, but we have to have the conversation, and the conversation starts with first an acknowledgement.

And this is where America has failed the Black community in particular, but has failed marginalized people across the board, is that they don't acknowledge when the harm has taken place.

They sweep it under the rug.

We erase it and silence it from the history books.

And then you gaslight the folks that have lived that experience and make them feel like they're crazy for saying my Black-lived experience didn't happen the way that I know that I felt it.

You know, Dr. Joy, DeGruy, um, speaks to our DNA and post-traumatic slave syndrome, right?

And so, I am literally as a Black woman carrying the DNA and the pain and the oppression that my mother carried, and that her mother carried, and her mother's mother.

And so, we can... we can trace that.

I mean, there's a visceral eff-— effect that I feel in my body when I see young, um, Black folks being accosted by police.

I feel it, right, because I have young Black boys who are mine that I bought into... brought into this world.

And so, if we're talking about solutions and how we get better, we have to start with the acknowledgement piece.

And then we have to challenge folks.

Um, you know, I do this for a living.

I'm an anti-racism activist.

And so, I go into spaces that are predominantly white and we have conversations, and we don't get to shy away from it.

And the challenge is, match your mission with your actions, right?

So, if your mission statement says this, university, if your mission statement says this, State of California, if your mission says this, nonprofit, what are you doing to match your actions to that mission?

And that's where the divide is.

That's where America has failed, and it's failed to... to translate that to individuals and to organizations.

And then lastly, let me just add that there are organizations out there.

I don't want to be the one that's always teaching and giving the labor for other folks.

There are model minorities that have subscribed to white supremacy, and we have to address that.

There's colorism that we have to address.

So, there are layers to the problem, but if... if we don't address it and it stays that secret in the closet, we won't get anywhere.

Scott: Uh, Sam, I'm going to ask you to give very-— three very succinct, um, proposals in terms of what needs to happen during this window.

And then, uh, we're going to have to wrap up.

Sam: Well, for... for me, this window how do we extend the window?

How... how do we fundamentally extend the window?

Structuralism.

We have to... we have to... we have to be... we have to be intentional.

We have to be-— we have to think about who we are and our own power.

Um, white people, Asian people, Latino people, we all have a moral responsibility in this time to look at the structures in which we're involved in.

Look at-— if you're in church, if you're a pastor, I think that there is a... a place for you to critically reevaluate the structures within the s-— in the... in the church space.

If you're in a government organization, if you're in a private sector business, you have a responsibility, a moral responsibility.

And I think there's, um, if I could, you know, every year we get people to a place of... of having a walk, having a time of understanding, having a time of stepping outside of yourself and engaging people who might not look like you and might not come from your background.

And I think we have to push ourselves.

So, on one level, we have to look at our structures because those structures change.

We have to look outside of our own comfort zones and... and expand that.

We have to anticipate that this time of George Floyd will come to an end and everything will normalize again.

And know this, that when it's normal, it's not right for us.

When it's normal for you, it's not right for us.

So, that normalization is what's killing us.

And so, if you could make the right thing, the... the not normal-— And I think that when we talk about, uh, structural, systemic change, we have to be intentional moving forward.

We have to reach outside our comfort zone.

To build understanding, to build collaboration.

As African Americans I say, lift as you climb, this is not new.

This is not new.

We have to look at-— for-— look for excellence within and... and without.

We have to do for us first and in ways that we... we -— in ways that we just haven't done before.

This is our time.

So those are my... my-— there's internal, the external, uh, pieces that are at play.

Scott: And we're going to have to leave it there.

And that's our show.

Thanks to our guests and thanks to you for watching Studio Sacramento.

I'm Scott Syphax.

See you next time right here on KVIE.

♪♪ ♪♪ Scott Syphax: All episodes of Studio Sacramento, along with other KVIE programs, are available to watch online at kvie.org/video.